vodikov motor

Tehnika. Kako deluje...? Zakaj ne moremo narediti...?
ZdravaPamet
Prispevkov: 2841
Pridružen: 16.8.2004 19:41

Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a ZdravaPamet »

ce ne zastopis kaj hocem povedat, potem to ni za te
Kaj ni zame? To, o čemer govoriš, ali to, kar govoriš?
a velike, male crke, pike i ostalo pozabi, to je forum, na katerem se forumu se pravilno pise?
Še nihče ni bil kaznovan, če je slengal ali žargonal ali karkoli že, kljub temu, da obstajajo nekakšna pravila. Ampak poglej ti svojo pisarjo; mešaš ene tri jezike, ne poznaš velike začetnice, pike, sploh ne upoštevaš nobenega pravila pisanja.
ščćđž a eto ti i druga slova pa ih ubaci gdje ti paše
No, saj pravim, da se moraš nasploh odločiti, v katerem jeziku boš pisal. Ć in đ sta že sumljiva znaka za slovenščino.

Lister
Prispevkov: 175
Pridružen: 2.6.2008 11:14

Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a Lister »

No ja fant pač ne zna slovensko, to še ne pomeni da ga je treba ubit. Če se ne marajo naši in pa hrvaški politiki še ni treba da bi se slovenci skregali z vsemi ostalimi narodi balkana!

Pa še temo bodo zaklenil če se bomo spet preveč zagreto pogovarjal.

ZdravaPamet
Prispevkov: 2841
Pridružen: 16.8.2004 19:41

Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a ZdravaPamet »

No ja fant pač ne zna slovensko, to še ne pomeni da ga je treba ubit. Če se ne marajo naši in pa hrvaški politiki še ni treba da bi se slovenci skregali z vsemi ostalimi narodi balkana!
Pričakoval sem tak odgovor. Menim, da si popolnoma zgrešil. Kako si lahko naenkrat prišel k misli, da se prepiramo? Vendarle gre za sporazumevanje in posameznik se je vedno primoran prilagoditi večini. Če noče, bo bodisi pozabljen in poteptan bodisi ga bodo slišali, če bo znal učiti. Obstaja seveda še tretja možnost, da se zateče v kakšno pravno zavetje in toži enega za drugim, ker ne govorijo vseh jezikov, ki si jih je zamislil.
Če bi možakar na začetku napravil sporočilo v hrvaščini, ki je sicer ne znam dovolj dobro, da bi sodil, ali njegovo pisanje ustreza normam tega jezika oziroma ker me to skoraj nikoli ne briga, razen v primeru vnebovpijočega egoizma in lenobe pri rabi ločil, bi pravgotovo povprašal po dodatni razlagi besed, ki jih ne bi razumel, bi pa na vsak način sodeloval v diskusiji v hrvaščini po svojih najboljših, čeprav skromnih, močeh. Zaradi mene bi lahko pisal v nemščini, angleščini ... karkoli.
Pa še temo bodo zaklenil če se bomo spet preveč zagreto pogovarjal.
Upam, da ne. Zdi se mi, da je tale forum najbolj toleranten med slovenskimi forumi. Ne, narobe. Ne gre za toleranco. Toleranca pomeni dopuščati to, s čimer se ne strinjaš, gre za bolj temeljno načelo, ki ga dandanes jemljemo kot aksiom, in sicer da je mnenje drugega dejstvo, tako kot njegov obraz. V naravoslovju je to še kako važen del znanstvene integritete. Naravoslovci se ne strinjamo s konsenzom, ampak na podlagi fakultativnih "prepričanj", ne toleriramo, ampak jemljemo na znanje. Sprejeto bodisi v zavesti potrdimo skozi dejstva bodisi to razglasimo za neresnično. V obeh primerih: dokler ni dokazano nasprotno.

Seveda je vse to samo moje mnenje in o ničemer nisem čisto prepričan...

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shrink
Prispevkov: 14585
Pridružen: 4.9.2004 18:45

Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

jukaZMAJ napisal/-a:shrink povej mi se neki
Koji zakon narave ne dopusca da z elektrolizo vode dobimo dovolj vodika koliko je potrebno za recimo 1 litrski agregat?
Noben, so pa trditve šarlatanov, da je z elektrolizo vode možno doseči izkoristke večje od 1, globoko skregane s prej omenjenim zakonom o ohranitvi energije.
celica napisal/-a:Shrink ti se kar smej, vendar ti povem da je za pojavom toplo morje veliko potenciala.
Toplo morje ali hladno morje, vedno mi bodo na smeh šli osebki, ki trdijo, da so izumili perpetuum mobile.

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Xantos
Prispevkov: 51
Pridružen: 21.3.2006 20:04
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Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a Xantos »

shrink:
Zakaj pa misliš, da overunity ne bi bil možen? Overunity je nekak tako kot človek, oblečen v exoskeleton - ti deluješ s silo 50kg (500N, da se ne bo spet kak pametnjakovič vtikal v semantiko), dvigneš pa breme z maso 250kg.

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shrink
Prispevkov: 14585
Pridružen: 4.9.2004 18:45

Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

Xantos napisal/-a:shrink:
Zakaj pa misliš, da overunity ne bi bil možen?
Zato, ker energije ne moreš ustvariti iz nič.
Xantos napisal/-a:Overunity je nekak tako kot človek, oblečen v exoskeleton - ti deluješ s silo 50kg (500N, da se ne bo spet kak pametnjakovič vtikal v semantiko), dvigneš pa breme z maso 250kg.
Ah, ni ti treba uporabljati ZF primerov, ko pa že v realnosti obstajajo ekvivalentni primeri: npr. servoojačevalnik. In verjemi, da servoojačevalnik nima izkoristka večjega od 1.

Multiplikacija sile (upam, da veš, zakaj do nje pride) namreč še ne pomeni, da si dobil ven več energije, kot si jo dal noter. Energija sistema se tudi v tem primeru ohranja. Delo (vhodno), ki ga opraviš pri stiskanju bata, je enako vsoti dela izgub v hidravličnem sistemu in dela (izhodnega) pri dvigu glavnega bata. Ker je izhodno delo vselej manjše od vhodnega, je izkoristek vselej manjši od 1. Izkoristki se namreč nanašajo na energije, ne na sile.

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jukaZMAJ
Prispevkov: 14
Pridružen: 24.3.2008 20:23

Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a jukaZMAJ »

Se opravičujem vsim ki so užaljeni z mešanico jezika z kojim se izražam, in pisavo brez pravilnih označb ali kaj že. Če ne zastopiš neki, me vprašaj. Jaz nisem na tem forumu zaradi kreganja, ampak da vprašam za mnenje nekoga ki ve več kot jaz.
Sam presenečen z toliko provokacij in nacionalizma na forumu za znanost.
Nazaj na temo
shrink napisal/-a:Noben, so pa trditve šarlatanov, da je z elektrolizo vode možno doseči izkoristke večje od 1, globoko skregane s prej omenjenim zakonom o ohranitvi energije.
Jaz nisem eden od tih, jst ne prodajam nič. samo sam radoveden, in še nisam najdo razloga da tašna reč ne bo delala.
Lep pozdrav

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shrink
Prispevkov: 14585
Pridružen: 4.9.2004 18:45

Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

jukaZMAJ napisal/-a:Se opravičujem vsim ki so užaljeni z mešanico jezika z kojim se izražam, in pisavo brez pravilnih označb ali kaj že. Če ne zastopiš neki, me vprašaj. Jaz nisem na tem forumu zaradi kreganja, ampak da vprašam za mnenje nekoga ki ve več kot jaz.
Komunikacija je lahko problem tudi zaradi jezika. Če bolje govoriš angleško, je na tem forumu možno komunicirati tudi v tem jeziku:

viewforum.php?f=31
jukaZMAJ napisal/-a:Sam presenečen z toliko provokacij in nacionalizma na forumu za znanost.
Ne vem, kje vidiš nacionalizem. Provokacije pa so stvar dojemanja. Če nekdo, ki zagovarja določene poglede, teh ne zna zadovoljivo pojasniti in hkrati vztraja, da so ti pogledi boljši od ustaljenih (znanstvenih), potem je logično, da mu bomo dali "možgane na pecelj".
jukaZMAJ napisal/-a:
shrink napisal/-a:Noben, so pa trditve šarlatanov, da je z elektrolizo vode možno doseči izkoristke večje od 1, globoko skregane s prej omenjenim zakonom o ohranitvi energije.
Jaz nisem eden od tih, jst ne prodajam nič. samo sam radoveden, in še nisam najdo razloga da tašna reč ne bo delala.
Očitno je res problem v komunikaciji, ker ne razumeš, kaj pišem. Seveda elektroliza deluje, ne more pa dati izkoristkov večjih od 1. Zakaj je temu tako, sem že povedal.

Video posnetki na youtube, ki kažejo, da je to možno, so seveda zelo slab dokaz. Da gre pri tem po vsej verjetnosti za rokohitrstvo oz. šarlatanstvo, potrjuje tudi praksa, saj je do sedaj vsakršen takšen eksperimentator padel na rigoroznih znanstvenih preverjanjih.

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jukaZMAJ
Prispevkov: 14
Pridružen: 24.3.2008 20:23

Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a jukaZMAJ »

shrink napisal/-a:Video posnetki na youtube, ki kažejo, da je to možno, so seveda zelo slab dokaz. Da gre pri tem po vsej verjetnosti za rokohitrstvo oz. šarlatanstvo, potrjuje tudi praksa, saj je do sedaj vsakršen takšen eksperimentator padel na rigoroznih znanstvenih preverjanjih.
OK, puistimo zdej youtube in učinek večji od 1.
Gremo od začetka. Elektroliza vode. 2H2O(l) → 2H2(g) + O2(g)
Enosmerna napetost na dve elektrodi ki so potopljene v vodo. Na katodi dobimo hidrogen, koliko ga bomo dobili je odvisno od dosti tega, recimo upornosti vode, napetosti na elektrodami...
Če elektrode damo bližje eno drugi, dobimo manj upora. Ko je signal na elektrodami neprekinjen enosmerni tok elektroni bojo konstantno prehodili od katode proti anodi.
Če sam se nekje zmotil naj me nekdo popravi, pa bomo nadaljevali, step by step.
In predlagam da otpremo novo temo "HHO generator", jaz ne morem napisat uvod u temo zaradi jezika, zato prosim nekoga naj otpre namesto mene.

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shrink
Prispevkov: 14585
Pridružen: 4.9.2004 18:45

Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

jukaZMAJ napisal/-a:OK, puistimo zdej youtube in učinek večji od 1.
Saj si sam hotel vedeti, zakaj iz enega litra vode na osnovi elektrolize ni možno pridobiti toliko energije, kot zatrjuje Animos. Kaj bi še rad?
jukaZMAJ napisal/-a:Gremo od začetka. Elektroliza vode. 2H2O(l) → 2H2(g) + O2(g)
Enosmerna napetost na dve elektrodi ki so potopljene v vodo. Na katodi dobimo hidrogen, koliko ga bomo dobili je odvisno od dosti tega, recimo upornosti vode, napetosti na elektrodami...
Če elektrode damo bližje eno drugi, dobimo manj upora. Ko je signal na elektrodami neprekinjen enosmerni tok elektroni bojo konstantno prehodili od katode proti anodi.
Če sam se nekje zmotil naj me nekdo popravi, pa bomo nadaljevali, step by step.
In kaj bi v zvezi s tem želel slišati? Morda to, ali prav razumeš elektrolizo? In s čim naj bi sploh nadaljevali?
jukaZMAJ napisal/-a:In predlagam da otpremo novo temo "HHO generator", jaz ne morem napisat uvod u temo zaradi jezika, zato prosim nekoga naj otpre namesto mene.
Novo temo lahko odpreš sam, če želiš. Vendar ne pričakuj, da ti bomo spet razlagali osnove, saj si takšne razlage lahko poiščeš sam (npr. na wikipediji).

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GJ
Prispevkov: 2635
Pridružen: 27.1.2003 22:08

Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a GJ »

jukaZMAJ napisal/-a:Če sam se nekje zmotil naj me nekdo popravi, pa bomo nadaljevali, step by step.
Oh jaa..
Glej, vse te stvari o katerih želiš razpravljati so fizikalno bolj ali manj dognane že precej dolgo časa.
Prvi jih je v enačbe, ki držijo še danes spravil Michael Faraday in to že več kot 150 let nazaj.
Upam, da ti angleški jezik ni tuj, ker upam da veš, da se ne bo nihče na tem svetu učil namesto tebe.
Pozorno si preberi vsaj tole, kar bi seveda z lahkoto našel tudi sam, le nekaj magičnih besed bi odtipkal v Google iskalnik. Vse to mi daje pravico misliti, da si ena velika lenoba, ki hoče modrovati s tistimi, ki imajo vsaj osnovne fizikalne pojme razčiščene.
No seveda poglej si še tole.. Faraday's laws of electrolysis.
Kar se tiče elektrolize vode pa si preberi vsaj tole.. Electrolysis.

Če ti ni kaj jasno, seveda lahko vprašaš, vendar pa pričakujemo, da bodo vprašanja premišljena in strokovne narave in ne plod večernih meditacij.

Lep dan..
Zadnjič spremenil GJ, dne 5.8.2008 10:44, skupaj popravljeno 2 krat.

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Aniviller
Prispevkov: 7263
Pridružen: 15.11.2004 18:16

Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a Aniviller »

Tema je prava, tako da lahko kar nadaljujemo. Bolje je pisati
\(2H_2O+4.92eV\to2H_2+O_2\)
Za proizvodnjo vodika potrebujes najmanj 4.92eV energije na dve molekuli vode, v praksi se vec zaradi izgub energije. Ce das elektrode bolj skupaj ne pomaga veliko, ker izgube niso samo zaradi upora.

Ko ta vodik uporabis za pogon motorja dobis nazaj MANJ kot 4.92eV energije (izkoristek stroja je vedno manj kot 100%). To pomeni, da si samo zacasno spremenil elektricno energijo v kemijsko (v vodik), in jo kasneje dobil nazaj, z velikimi izgubami. To je dobro samo, ce je vodik lazje skladisciti kot elektriko (baterije). Avtomobili, ki delujejo na ''vodo'' s pomocjo elektrolize (nekaj mesecev nazaj sem spet videl clanke o takem avtomobilu), porabijo se vec energije, kot ce bi elektriko direktno porabili za elektromotor.

Ce je informacija o energiji napacna, naj me kdo popravi.

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jukaZMAJ
Prispevkov: 14
Pridružen: 24.3.2008 20:23

Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a jukaZMAJ »

mythbusters napisal/-a: Water-for-gas? Let's have a look, shall we?

The standard reaction for the electrolysis of water is:
2H2O → 2H2(g) + O2(g)
For this process, 4 moles of electrons take place, therefore the standard free energy change is:
ΔG = -nFε
ΔG = -4*96487*1.229
ΔG = -474330 J

We can expect to extract -474 kJ from the products of the electrolysis and use it to do work.

This is also borne out by looking at the approximate bond energies. 4 H-O bonds must be broken, at ≈460 kJ each, but energy is released when the new bonds form. The O=O bond yields ≈498 kJ and the H-H bonds yield ≈433 kJ each. Our net free energy is:
-4(460000) + 2(433000) + 498000 = -476000 J

So we have to put ≈ 475 kJ into the system to separate the water, and we can get ≈ 475kJ back out in utilizing the free energy.

According to the "Oxyhydrogen" people (more on this later), burning the resulting gases gives off 576 kJ. If the TOTAL energy that can possibly be released to do work is 475 kJ, how are they magically getting 576 kJ? They're generally not.

Now, on to the electrolysis itself. The efficiencies for electrolysis of water are reported as anywhere from 50% to 94%. So, in the best case, we have to put 505 kJ in to be able to get 475 kJ out, and in the worst case we need an input of 950 kJ to be able to get 475 kJ out. Even before factoring in the other losses, we can see from the 50-94% efficiencies, that we will have a net loss of 6-50% of the energy used for electrolysis.

There are thermal losses from heat engines. From Carnot, the MAXIMUM possible efficiency from our engine is 70-75%. The real value is about 25% due to friction and the fact that the combustion is not spontaneously reversible.

So, with the maximum possible theoretical efficiency (which can NOT be obtained in practice) we are now needing anywhere from 675 kJ to 1357 kJ. Even if we allow for the inflated output numbers, and ignore the actual losses we'd encounter, you can NOT produce 576 kJ and use it to keep a process needing 675 kJ to 1357 kJ on-going. And this is before we try to extract any OTHER work from our engine -- we are solely using the output power to try and drive the input power.

In reality, what you end up with is needing to output around 3150 kJ to keep the cycle going, but you are only producing 475 kJ. This is why water-4-gas did not work when Adam and Jamie tried it. The losses completely overwhelm any energies "created". Water is not a fuel -- it is the ashes of hydrogen that has been burned once before.


Now, I know the "newest" schemes do not try to run the car solely off the hydrogen, but call for using it in a "hydro-assist" manner. The claim is that the hydrogen makes the gasoline burn better.

The first thing to note is the losses from above. If we need 3150 kJ to produce two moles of hydrogen gas, and can only get 475 kJ back from the system, then we need to burn an ADDITIONAL 2675 kJ worth of gasoline just to break even!! This isn't looking promising.

But, but, but... the claims are that the hydrogen is a "catalyst" and makes the gasoline burn more efficiently.

So? That claim is just wrong. We know we can't affect the thermal efficiency of the Carnot cycle by very much, so 75% is still going to be "wasted". Even if the hydrogen did act as a "catalyst", there is no more energy to be released -- 99% of the gasoline does undergo combustion. A 300% gain in efficiency would imply that we are now getting 399% of the theoretically-retrievable energy that the gasoline contains (well, actually more than 399% because we also need to cover the losses from the electrolysis). This is just asinine and Carnot says otherwise. Energy can not be created from nothing -- the gasoline can NOT give more than 100% of what it has.

But, but, but... "it's not H2 gas that is produced, it's monatomic hydrogen!"

Ok, let's look at that. The ½H2(g) → H(g) reaction is NOT exothermic until you reach a temperature of about 4000K. At our temperatures you need to INPUT another 800 kJ (4*200 kJ) to get the 2H2(g) into 4H(g). Without even considering the thermal losses from the combustion cycle, we now need an input of about 1600 kJ to our electrolysis system in order to get the claimed 576 kJ of "oxyhydrogen" back out (and that calculation was made in the 19th century and is taken from a 1911 encyclopaedic entry -- wonder why they don't use more modern sources and numbers?). I'm still seeing a major net loss, aren't you?

But, but, but... "the hydrogen DOES improve the efficiency!"

Yes, it is reported that hydrogen can increase the lean limit from 1.7 to 1.85, and it is also reported that hydrogen can reduce the no-load idle consumption of gasoline by up to 50% in small engines.

Let's look at these. First off, these are for volumes of hydrogen that can't possibly be produced by these simple cells. And, the reported lamdas of 1.7 and 1.85 are for natural gas combustion, not gasoline. The lean limit for gasoline is a lamda of about 1.2. Until you get to the lean misfire conditions, leaning your gasoline down WILL reduce consumption. But you also get rough idle and loss of power. Except when idling, you car isn't fully leaned (and even then it's not maxed out) -- in fact, the more demand you're putting on the engine, the richer the computer (or even the carb in non-EFI engines) makes the mixture. By overriding the computer and approaching the lean limit, you can reduce consumption at idle even without hydrogen. But as you place demands on the engine, it can NOT be run this lean. The faster you go, the more engine power must be used to overcome drag, so at highway speeds, even if you are not accelerating, you are not running a lean mixture. The manufacturers do NOT lean the idle down as far as possible, because excessive leaning can burn the spark plugs and pistons and lead to detonation and preignition. Even if it was possible to reduce idle usage of gasoline by up to 50%, the long-term engine damage and the percentage of the time the engine is NOT idling dramatically reduce this savings. Plus, you STILL need extra gasoline to produce the hydrogen in the first place from all the above-mentioned losses.


"Ok, ok... so I can't get such phenomenal gains in mileage from 'hydro-assist.' But what about this PICC stuff?"

Ah, yes... The "pre-ignition catalytic converter". Let's take a look.

The claim is that the PICC will break the isooctane molecule of gasoline down into smaller molecules that will "burn better." Oh, really? When we looked at the energies involved in electrolysis, we noticed that breaking bonds takes energy and forming bonds releases energy. It doesn't matter what happens in-between. If our net result is 2C8H18 + 25O2 → 16CO2 + 18H2O, then we are breaking 37 C-H bonds, 14 C-C bonds and 25 O=O bonds, but re-forming 32 C-O bonds and 36 H-O bonds. Any bonds that form and break in-between are immaterial; we are left with a net change in bonds of about 37800 kJ. But, and this is important, it TAKES energy to make any smaller molecules. We have to put energy in, in order to have the higher bond energies of any smaller molecules. The net change from beginning to end, remains the same: whether you extract 37.8 MJ from the gasoline, or extract 57.8 MJ after putting 20 MJ into the bonds of smaller molecules, is immaterial -- the net change is still 37.8 MJ.

And besides, the PICC sites claim they're making a "plasma". Plasmas do not undergo normal chemical reactions. You won't get combustion in a plasma, nevermind factoring in the large energies necessary to create plasmas in the first place.



Every step of all these schemes consumes far more energy than it could possibly release. There is no magic way to get such phenomenal gains in fuel efficiency out of your existing car.

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jukaZMAJ
Prispevkov: 14
Pridružen: 24.3.2008 20:23

Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a jukaZMAJ »

mythbusters napisal/-a:
First off, let's take a look at Hess's Law:

"The heat change (ΔH) that accompanies a given chemical reaction is the same whether the reaction occurs in one step or in several steps."

(http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/~cchieh ... /hess.html)

What does this mean for w-4-g, oxyhdrogen and PICC? Just what it says. If you start with 2 C8H18 + 25 O2 and end up with 16 CO2 and 18 H2O, there will be the same total change in energy, no matter what path you take to get there. It's like the change in temperatures (or changes in displacements)... if it's 22°C today and was 24°C yesterday, then that is a change of 2 Celsius degrees -- it doesn't matter that it dropped to 16°C overnight... it could have dropped to -40°C overnight and it would *still* be a net change of 2 Celsius degrees from day-to-day. Back to combustion, it doesn't matter what reactions are undergone to get from the isooctane and oxygen to the carbon dioxide and water. You can take many paths to get there (most of which will require the *input* of extra energy, which is subsequently re-released), but the net energy released from that net reaction will always be the same. There is no magic additive to get the gasoline to release more energy than it already does. The standard combustion reaction always releases the same amount of energy. Always.


Yes. That reaction doesn't always take place -- it is the ideal.


But let's look at possible gains using published EPA numbers.

Not all the gasoline is combusted, that's true. But about 99% is, according to EPA estimates... the best gain possible in that regard is about 1%. You can't burn more than the 100% of what's going into the cylinder.

Now, one of the products that the catalytic converter deals with is HxCx unburned hydrocarbons (HC). Ignoring CARB limits and more modern standards, even the 1994 limits on HC emissions were 0.25 g/mile. A quick bit of simple math will tell us that a 25mpg car (2650 grams/gallon for gasoline * 1/25 gallons/mile = 106 grams of gasoline per mile) must only be emitting 0.25g/106g = 0.0024 = 0.24% HC at the maximum. Now, granted most cars will be well under this at the tailpipe, as it is only the upper limit set by Congress, but the catalytic converter is also helping to oxidize the initially higher levels of HC. I would think people would be hard pressed to prove that any modern engine is producing much more than 4% HC, seeing as how engines in the 50's were only producing on the order of 7% HC (2650 g/gallon * 1/15 gallons/mile = 177 g/mile... 13g/mile HC produced / 177 g/mile gasoline used = 7.3%), long before any reductions started being built in to the engine operations and before any exhaust treatments started being employed. So, we're still not finding room for such a major breakthrough in "efficiency". And even then, forming the smaller HxCx hydrocarbons is releasing *some* energy -- just not as much as if complete combustion had taken place for those molecules.

So, the only other place for "better combustion" is for more CO2 to be formed, and less CO. Let's look at that. Again the 1994 standards are 3.4 grams per mile CO, down from 87 grams per mile in the 50's. If the combustion was complete, one gallon of gasoline would produce 8875 grams of CO2. So 8875g CO2/gallon * 1/25 gallon/mile = 355g/mile CO2 produced by the modern 25mpg engine. 8875g/gal * 1/15 gal/mile = 592g/mile CO2 produced by the 1950's engine. The current emission of CO over CO2 is around 1% and the historical value produced was around 20%. Even if the engine still is producing 20% CO and 80% CO2 today (which it isn't), what would be the difference in the energy released? Forming CO2 releases 3.5 times the energy that forming CO does. So, forming 100% CO2 would be releasing 17% more energy (0.2 + 0.8*3.5 = 3, 3(CO/CO2 mix)/3.5(pure CO2) = 1.17).

So the absolute most you could hope for is an overall 20% increase in the combustion efficiency. The actual value you can manage is considerably lower than that, but even assuming the worst of your engine to start with, there just isn't room for more than a 20% gain in the combustion efficiency of gasoline. And oddly enough, the auto makers have tried to release every drop of energy that they can out of the gasoline -- they're not going to leave a 20% gain just sitting there unattended.

Without totally redesigning the car and lowering both the weight and the drag, there is no possible way to do *anything* to the gasoline to double the mileage it produces with an existing car. There is no possible way to even get a 50% gain. 5%, possibly.

The major inefficiency of the internal combustion engine is limited by the theoretical Carnot efficiency. There is very little that can be done to raise the engine's efficiency from 25-30%. Again, this is thermodynamics. So, you can't get the gain by making the gasoline "burn better", and you can't improve on the losses from the engine just by modifying the fuel a little bit. Where do people think these magic gains are coming from?

The only real way you can improve the mileage of an existing vehicle is through more efficient driving.

And again, it takes 105 watts input to the alternator shaft for every 100 watts of electricity it outputs. When you turn on the rear defroster wires or operate power windows, it *does* put more load on the engine. The alternator is never producing surplus electricity. So, your "little bit" of electricity is putting a larger load on the engine. It is. You try to draw more electricity off of it, and it gets harder to turn. This is a regular demonstration at science centers.

So, with the efficiency of the engine and the electrolytic cell, you need the engine to consume about 560 watts (from either gasoline or a gasoline/hydrogen mixture) to produce 100 watts "worth" of hydrogen. See? It takes more energy to make the gas, than what you get back burning it. Always.

So, producing the gas is a net loss of energy, and can't possibly have the effect on combustion that is claimed for it. It doesn't need to be tested. I also don't need to test that I can't fit one gallon of gas into a 1 cup measuring cup. The math says it is not possible. The math says there is no room for it.

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jukaZMAJ
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Pridružen: 24.3.2008 20:23

Re: vodikov motor

Odgovor Napisal/-a jukaZMAJ »

William S. Power napisal/-a:What is the HydroStar System, and is it for real?

A water-fueled engine conversion system is a very simple, but precise
definition of the fantastic HydroStar System. The engine operates entirely
on hydrogen and oxygen, generated by the electrolysis of water. No
petroleum derived fuel or external electrical generating system is used, or
even required. The only byproduct resulting from hydrogen and oxygen
combustion within the engine, and expelled from the exhaust system, is
water. So, it’s completely non-polluting, emitting no noxious fumes. In
short, the HydroStar System is an absolutely "clean" system; one that’s
powered by a free and inexhaustible resource; WATER! It has the unique
advantage of being able to remove pollutants from the air during
combustion; thus helping to clean our environment. The exhaust from the
HydroStar System is actually cleaner than most outside air!
The HydroStar System is for real! It is the end result of many years of
testing and experimentation with a multitude of hydrogen generating
systems based on the principle of electrolysis of water.

Water electrolysis is simply the breaking down of water into its
basic hydrogen and oxygen atoms by passing an electric current
through it. You don’t even have to add an electrolyte (such as
acid) to the water to assure electrical conductivity, as is required
with a battery; plain old tap water works fine. In fact, electrolysis
is in many ways similar to the reaction which occurs within your
vehicles’ battery. Electrolysis of water is nothing new; it was first
accomplished nearly a century ago. But, until the HydroStar
System was developed, it required a high voltage power supply
and consumed vast amounts of electrical energy. It actually
required much more electrical energy than the energy derived
from the combustion of the resultant hydrogen and oxygen. In
other words, it was an extremely inefficient process that had no
practical use.
The HydroStar is the first, and so far only, practical system
developed for use in vehicles. The secret of the HydroStar lies
within it HyTronic module. It produces relatively low voltage, but
uniquely shaped electronic pulses of precise frequency and
duration. The overall power consumption of the HyTronic module
and the entire HydroStar System is fairly low; actually low enough
to be easily powered by your vehicles’ alternator or generator, and
with enough reserve power left to run all your vehicles other
electrical devices.
Is the HydroStar a perpetual motion machine?

The HydroStar is not a perpetual motion machine. It is a high
efficiency, water-fueled, electro-mechanical system capable of
producing hydrogen and oxygen in sufficient quantity to power
internal combustion engines.
Is the HydroStar safe?

Vehicles powered by the HydroStar System are inherently safer
than existing gasoline powered vehicles. Gas tanks have to hold
many gallons of gas in order to allow vehicles to travel great
distances. Such large volumes of gas hold tremendous amounts of
combustible energy, as is often demonstrated by the fiery results of
an accident severe enough to rupture the gas tank. Very little
hydrogen has to be stored within the HydroStars’ Hydrogen
Generator. The only necessary fuel stored in quantity is water;
which, of course, is not combustible.

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