Two Fundamental Approaches on Time

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amrit
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Two Fundamental Approaches on Time

Post by amrit » 5.4.2009 9:48

Two Fundamental Approaches on Time

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Abstract
Today in physics there are two fundamental approaches on time. First is that clocks run in space-time as a basic physical reality. Second approach is that clocks run only in physical (cosmic) space and clock’s run is time itself. First approach has limitations regarding quantum non-locality and superluminal phenomena. It has no experimental evidence, space-time as a fundamental physical reality in which material change run cannot be observed. Second approach introduces “strange” idea that physical space itself is immediate information transfer medium between elementary particles. Second approach is confirmed with experimental evidence. Each experiment conforms that with clocks we measure duration and numerical order of material change that run in physical space. Clocks do not run in time, clock’s run itself is time. Run of time is relative; speed of clocks depends on strength of gravity force in different areas of physical space.
Key words: time, physical space, duration, numerical order, information

Introduction
There is no experimental evidence for space-time existing as physical reality. In physical experiments one observes stream of material change in physical space only. Physical space is a medium in which massive bodies and elementary particles move. Space-time is not a physical reality, space-time is merely a mathematical model with which one describe stream of material change in physical space. With clocks we measure duration and numerical order of material change that run in physical space. There is no evidence that material change happens in time; we can only observe stream of material change in physical space. Here time is defined as: Time is run of clocks in physical space. Physical space itself is timeless. Travel into past are out of question.

Discussion
An article discussing possibilities that space is timeless was recently published in archiv. “From the Physics point of view, time is now best described through General Relativity, as part of space-time which is a dynamical object encoding gravity. Time possesses also some intrinsic irreversibility due to thermodynamics, quantum mechanical effects... This irreversibility can look puzzling since time-like loops (and hence time machines) can appear in General Relativity (for example in the Goedel universe, a solution of Einstein's equations). We take this apparent discrepancy as a warning bell pointing to us that time as we understand it, might not be fundamental and that whatever theory, lying beyond General Relativity, may not include time as we know it as a fundamental structure. We propose therefore, following the philosophy of analog models of gravity, that time and gravity might not be fundamental per se, but only emergent features. We illustrate our proposal using a toy-model where we show how the Lorentzian signature and Nordstroem gravity (a diffeomorphisms invariant scalar gravity theory) can emerge from a timeless non-dynamical space” (1).
Relativity of Time
According to this understanding of time in the Special Theory of Relativity in a faster inertial system the speed of clocks (time) and material change in general, is lower than in a slower inertial system. In General Theory of Relativity in physical space with stronger gravity the speed of clocks (time) and material change is lower than in cosmic space with a weaker gravity field.
This understanding of time resolves the problem of twins. They do not live in time; they live in space only. A brother in a high-speed spaceship is getting older slower than his brother on Earth, but both are getting older in a physical space only and not in time. With clocks we measure biological changes in their bodies.

Direct Quantum Information
Some research shows that quantum direct communication is a real phenomenon: “We show how continuous-variable systems can allow the direct communication of messages with an acceptable degree of privacy. This is possible by combining a suitable phase-space encoding of the plain message with real-time checks of the quantum communication channel. The resulting protocol works properly when a small amount of noise affects the quantum channel. If this noise is non-tolerable, the protocol stops leaving a limited amount of information to a potential eavesdropper”(2).
Here it is considered that information does not move in space-time, it moves in physical space only. Physical space itself is immediate information medium between quanta.
Also in the EPR experiment physical space is immediate information medium between elementary particles. There is no information signal in form of photon or some other particle traveling between particles A and B. Time of information transfer between particle A and particle B is zero (3).
Causality problems for Fermi’s two-atom system
Physical space as an “immediate information medium” resolves the causality problem of Fermy two atoms system: “Let A and B be two atoms or, more generally, a ‘‘source’’ and a ‘‘detector’’ separated by some distance R. At t=0A is in an excited state, B in its ground state, and no photons are present. A theorem is proved that in contrast to Einstein causality and finite signal velocity the excitation probability of B is nonzero immediately after t=0. Implications are discussed”(4).
Excitation probability of B is nonzero because space in which atoms exists is an “immediate medium of excitation”. There is no time needed for information or excitation to pass from A to B. Time is only a measure for motion of excitation from atom A to atom B in physical space.
Immediate Physical Phenomena
According to understanding here physical phenomena can be immediate. Time t for these phenomena to happen is zero. Experiment from which they conclude that an electron can tunnel through the potential barrier of a He atom in practically no time vas carried out recently (5).
Conclusions
Material change does not run in time, they run in physical space only. Clocks are scientific tools which measure time as a duration and numerical order of material change that run in physical space. Some physical phenomena are immediate. Time for these phenomena to happen is zero.

References:
1. Florian Girelli, Stefano Liberati, Lorenzo Sindoni, Is the notion of time really fundamental? Submitted on 27 Mar 2009 http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.48762. S. Pirandola and others, Quantum direct communication with continuous variables, A Leters Journal Exploring Frontier of Physics (2008)
3. Fiscaletti D. Sorli A.S. Non-locality and the Symmetryzed Quantum Potential , Physics Essays, 21(4), (2008)

4. Gerhard C. Hegerfeldt. Causality problems for Fermi’s two-atom system, Phys. Rev. Lett. 72, 596 - 599 (1994) http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v72/i5/p596_1

5. P. Eckle, A. N. Pfeiffer, C. Cirelli, A. Staudte, R. Dörner, H. G. Muller, M. Büttiker, U. Keller, Attosecond Ionization and Tunneling Delay Time Measurements in Helium, Science,
Vol. 322. no. 5907, pp. 1525 – 1529 (2008) http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/a ... /5907/1525

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Re: Two Fundamental Approaches on Time

Post by =) » 5.4.2009 9:54

kaj hočeš doseči? GJ ti je v drugi temi že lepo odgovoril...
Če si pripravljen povedat, kaj te muči imaš tam super priložnost :wink:

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shrink
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Re: Two Fundamental Approaches on Time

Post by shrink » 5.4.2009 10:13

Ker vse kaže na to, da amrit ne bo prenehal s spamanjem na tem forumu (takemu sklepu pritrjuje tudi obnašanje na drugih forumih), bi bili morda na mestu bolj radikalni ukrepi s ciljem, da se mu nadaljnje tako početje prepreči.

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fogl
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Re: Two Fundamental Approaches on Time

Post by fogl » 5.4.2009 10:55

Amritovo izvajanje se prav nič ne razlikuje od spemarjev, ki občasno smetijo po tem forumu. Te teme so po mojem mnenju za izbris (tako kot ostali spem), ne za zaklepanje.

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Re: Two Fundamental Approaches on Time

Post by ZdravaPamet » 5.4.2009 11:01

Ja, se strinjam. Amrit v končni fazi krši pravila objavljanja. Mimogrede, zakaj se dovoljuje objavljati lastne "članke" v angleščini v tej rubriki?

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amrit
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Re: Two Fundamental Approaches on Time

Post by amrit » 5.4.2009 11:29

toliko jeze med fiziki
ne morem verjeti
ali je vam sploh jasno da najbolj modre glave na tem svetu razmišljajo da je prostor-čas le math model in da je čas tek ur sam v prostoru?!!!!!
da je prostor brezčasen (timeless)
prosim vas preberite si članek spodaj, dajte malo odpret vašo ozko pamet...........ni slovenija svetovni center znanosti, sploh pa ne ta časopis....dajte bit malo svetovljani
http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.4876

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amrit
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Re: Two Fundamental Approaches on Time

Post by amrit » 5.4.2009 11:33

shrink wrote:Ker vse kaže na to, da amrit ne bo prenehal s spamanjem na tem forumu (takemu sklepu pritrjuje tudi obnašanje na drugih forumih), bi bili morda na mestu bolj radikalni ukrepi s ciljem, da se mu nadaljnje tako početje prepreči.
shrink ne gre za spam, gre za resne zadeve
preberi si tele članke spodaj
tega enostavno ne moreš ignorirat če si fizik

http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.4876

http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3489

http://arxiv.org/abs/0804.2900

shrink jaz imam resne namene, da ustvarimo kontruktivno debato o času na tem časopisu
prosim te preglej članke zgoraj in jih komentirej tu podaj

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Re: Two Fundamental Approaches on Time

Post by =) » 5.4.2009 12:28

ZdravaPamet wrote:Ja, se strinjam. Amrit v končni fazi krši pravila objavljanja. Mimogrede, zakaj se dovoljuje objavljati lastne "članke" v angleščini v tej rubriki?
se strinjam

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Re: Two Fundamental Approaches on Time

Post by moderator » 5.4.2009 12:31

Zaklep teme. Diskusija se lahko nadaljuje v obstoječih sorodnih temah.

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