Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Kaj bi bilo, če bi lahko ... ?
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GJ
Prispevkov: 2635
Pridružen: 27.1.2003 22:08

Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a GJ »

amrit napisal/-a:individualne duše ni
obstaja le kozmična zavest, ki ni "ena", enostavno "JE", "eksistira", tudi zavest je energija
mrtve živali in ljudje so lažje, ker se neka še doslej neznana energija subkvantnega nivoja izloči iz telesa nazaj v prostor
Amrit nisi prvi, ki je hotel stehtati dušo/zavest!
To so počeli že mnogi pred teboj!
Tvoj problem je bil in je še vedno, da si imel preveliko željo po tem, da ima duša maso oziroma energijo.
Tehtanje duš je za lahkoverno rajo, ki naj bi sledila tvojim teorijam, ki pa so na subkvantnem nivoju. :lol:

Če si edina oseba na svetu, ki je do danes uspešno stehtala duše/zavest, potem je skrajni čas, da se zaveš da je nekaj narobe s teboj!

Lep dan želim...

Vedež
Prispevkov: 1051
Pridružen: 19.4.2004 8:33

Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a Vedež »

Saj sem ti že odgovarjal na ta vprašanja.

Kje?
Seveda bi bilo vsem najlaže, da rečem, da je v Ljubljani, morda v Kopru ali pa na Luni. In bi jo šli tam iskat, da se "znanstveno" dokaže.

Je le to, da JE. Tako prostor kot čas, sta ti v uporabo pri življenju v telesu.

Iz kakšnih delcev? Delci so ti na uporabo pri življenju v telesu.

Energija? Če ti bo lažje, si jo lahko zamisliš tudi kot energijo, vendar jo jaz ne bi poistovetil z našim tolmačenjem energije, ker potem spet zapademo v nezmožnost definiranja nečesa, kar ni v povezavi s trenutno otipljivimi fizikalnimi pojavi.

Spreminja? V bistvu se igra.

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GJ
Prispevkov: 2635
Pridružen: 27.1.2003 22:08

Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a GJ »

Vedež napisal/-a:Saj sem ti že odgovarjal na ta vprašanja.
In nikoli odgovoril!
Tvoji odgovori so največkrat povezani z glagoloma: če hočeš ali pa, če želiš!
Recimo:
Vedež napisal/-a:Kakor hočeš.
ali pa
Vedež napisal/-a: Na tem nivoju DA (ča tako želiš)
Še boljši je tale
Vedež napisal/-a: Doživljaš tisto, kar si želiš.
...

Odgovor je torej takšen kot si ga želiš!
Vedež napisal/-a:Spreminja? V bistvu se igra.
Hazarder!
Vendar pa mora na koncu tudi pasti željena številka na ruleti, v razumevanju tega tiči tvoj neozdravljivi problem!

Lep dan...

Vedež
Prispevkov: 1051
Pridružen: 19.4.2004 8:33

Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a Vedež »

Odgovor je torej takšen kot si ga želiš!
Si moreš mislit, kako si zadel s tem stavkom.

Tukaj si zato, da si delaš življenje takšno kot si ga želiš. Ravno v tem tiči bistvo raznolikosti. Ti imaš svoje ideje in svoje življenje, jaz imam svoje, Shrink ima svoje. Tako to gre.

Seveda padajo številke ali bolje rečeno rezultati. Le ti so del igre, ki jo igraš.

S smrtjo igra ni zaključena. To pojasnjuje, zakaj eni trpijo, drugi so srečni, eni revni, drugi bogati. Slej kot prej bodo vsi (ali pa so že) izkusili podobne občutke.

V življenju ne gre za materialno izkustvo, ker je materialen svet le iluzija.

Ko potegneš črto, je pomembno le to, kakšne in koliko različnih vrst občutkov si doživel. Nič drugega ni pomembno.

V religijah to tolmačijo z borbo med dobrim in zlim, med peklom in nebesi, s karmo, z reinkarnacijo. Naj ponovim, življenje je občutek, ki ti daje občutke radosti, veselja, žalosti, trpljenja, ljubezni, sovraštva ...

Duša je vesolje. Je celota in v vsakem izmed nas ter v vsakem najmanjšem delcu katerekoli materije.

Roman
Prispevkov: 6598
Pridružen: 21.10.2003 8:03

Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a Roman »

Vedež napisal/-a:Tukaj si zato, da si delaš življenje takšno kot si ga želiš.
Zgolj v primeru, če si ga želiš v okviru možnosti.
S smrtjo igra ni zaključena.
To velja samo za smrt drugega.
To pojasnjuje, zakaj eni trpijo, drugi so srečni, eni revni, drugi bogati.
Ne, to tega ne pojasnjuje.
Slej kot prej bodo vsi (ali pa so že) izkusili podobne občutke.
Prej ali slej bomo vsi brez občutkov.
V življenju ne gre za materialno izkustvo, ker je materialen svet le iluzija.
Vsako izkustvo je materialno oziroma je odvisno od materije, kjer nastaja.
Ko potegneš črto, je pomembno le to, kakšne in koliko različnih vrst občutkov si doživel. Nič drugega ni pomembno.
Pravzaprav tudi to ni pomembno. Pomembnost je iluzija.
Duša je vesolje.
Samo v pesniškem svetu.
Je celota
Pozabljaš na razcepljence.
v vsakem najmanjšem delcu katerekoli materije.
Ah no.

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amrit
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Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a amrit »

roman jaz nisem filozof
jaz sem meditator - naravoslovec
expert za čas, ki ga ni


TIME IS RUN OF CLOCKS


Abstract
Today in physics there are two fundamental approaches on time. First is that with clocks we measure time that is a consistent part of space. According to this approach clocks run in space-time as a basic physical reality. This approach has no experimental evidence, space-time as a fundamental physical reality in which material change run cannot be experimentally observed. Second approach is that time is not part of space; time is run of clocks in space. Each experiment conforms that with clocks we measure duration and numerical order of material change that run in space. There is no experimental evidence that clocks run in time, clock’s run itself is time. Run of time is relative; speed of clocks depends on strength of gravity force in different areas of space. Space itself is timeless (atemporal).
Key words: time, space, duration, numerical order, information

Introduction
There is no experimental evidence for space-time existing as physical reality. In physical experiments one observes stream of material change in physical space only. Physical space is a medium in which massive bodies and elementary particles move. Space-time is not a physical reality, space-time is merely a mathematical model with which one describe stream of material change in physical space. With clocks we measure duration and numerical order of material change that run in physical space. Here time is defined as: Time is run of clocks in physical space. Physical space itself is timeless (atemporal). Travel into past are out of question.

Discussion
Several researches confirm that space-time as an “arena” of the universe does not correspond to the physical reality. They propose “timeless space” as an arena of the universe.
An article discussing that model of space-time is not corresponding physical universal space and could be replaced with atemporal fractal geometry of state space was recently published on arxiv (1).
An article discussing possibilities that space is timeless was recently published in arxiv: “We illustrate our proposal using a toy-model where we show how the Lorentzian signature and Nordstroem gravity (a diffeomorphisms invariant scalar gravity theory) can emerge from a timeless non-dynamical space” (2).
Time and clocks are man inventions. Motion is primary, time is secondary. Ernst Mach sad: “It is utterly beyond our power to measure the changes of things by time. Quite the contrary, time is an abstraction, at which we arrive by means of the changes of things”(3).
Time is a scientific tool that permits us to build up cosmological models of the universe. Time as a run of clocks plays no role in the universe. Julian Barbour is saying in his article “The Nature of Time”: “I will not claim that time can be definitely banished from physics; the universe might be infinite, and black holes present some problems for the time picture. Nevertheless, I think is entirely possible – indeed likely – that time as such plays no role in the universe” (3).

Relativity of Time
According to this understanding of time in the Special Theory of Relativity in a faster inertial system the speed of clocks (time) and material change in general, is lower than in a slower inertial system. In General Theory of Relativity in physical space with stronger gravity the speed of clocks (time) and material change is lower than in cosmic space with a weaker gravity field.
This understanding of time resolves the problem of twins. They do not live in time; they live in space only. A brother in a high-speed spaceship is getting older slower than his brother on Earth, but both are getting older in a physical space only and not in time. With clocks we measure biological changes in their bodies.

Direct Quantum Information
Some research shows that quantum direct communication is a real phenomenon: “We show how continuous-variable systems can allow the direct communication of messages with an acceptable degree of privacy. This is possible by combining a suitable phase-space encoding of the plain message with real-time checks of the quantum communication channel. The resulting protocol works properly when a small amount of noise affects the quantum channel. If this noise is non-tolerable, the protocol stops leaving a limited amount of information to a potential eavesdropper”(4).
Here it is considered that information does not move in space-time, it moves in physical space only. Physical space itself is immediate information medium between quanta.
Also in the EPR experiment physical space is immediate information medium between elementary particles. There is no information signal in form of photon or some other particle traveling between particles A and B. Time of information transfer between particle A and particle B is zero (5).

Causality problems for Fermi’s two-atom system
Physical space as an “immediate information medium” resolves the causality problem of Fermy two atoms system: “Let A and B be two atoms or, more generally, a ‘‘source’’ and a ‘‘detector’’ separated by some distance R. At t=0A is in an excited state, B in its ground state, and no photons are present. A theorem is proved that in contrast to Einstein causality and finite signal velocity the excitation probability of B is nonzero immediately after t=0. Implications are discussed”(6).
Excitation probability of B is nonzero because space in which atoms exists is an “immediate medium of excitation”. There is no time needed for information or excitation to pass from A to B. Time is only a measure for motion of excitation from atom A to atom B in physical space.
Immediate Physical Phenomena
According to understanding here physical phenomena can be immediate. One can also say “timeless” or “atemporal”. Time t for these phenomena to happen is zero. Experiment from which they conclude that an electron can tunnel through the potential barrier of a He atom in practically no time vas carried out recently (7).
An article on arxiv a system of diagrams is introduced that allows the representation of various elements of a quantum circuit, including measurements, in a form which makes no reference to time (hence ``atemporal'') (8).

Conclusions
Material change does not run in time, they run in physical space only. Physical space itself is timeless (atemporal). Some physical phenomena that run atemporal physical space are immediate. Time for these phenomena to happen is zero. Clocks are scientific tools which measure time as a duration and numerical order of material change that run in timeless physical space.

References:
1. T.N.Palmer, The Invariant Set Hypothesis: A New Geometric Framework for the Foundations of Quantum Theory and the Role Played by Gravity, Submitted on 5 Dec 2008, last revised 17 Feb 2009, http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.1148
2. Florian Girelli, Stefano Liberati, Lorenzo Sindoni, Is the notion of time really fundamental? Submitted on 27 Mar 2009 http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.4876
3. Julian Barbour, The Nature of Time, submitted on 20 Mar 2009, http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3489

4. S. Pirandola and others, Quantum direct communication with continuous variables, A Leters Journal Exploring Frontier of Physics (2008)
5. Fiscaletti D. Sorli A.S. Non-locality and the Symmetryzed Quantum Potential , Physics Essays, 21(4), (2008)

6. Gerhard C. Hegerfeldt. Causality problems for Fermi’s two-atom system, Phys. Rev. Lett. 72, 596 - 599 (1994) http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v72/i5/p596_1

7. P. Eckle, A. N. Pfeiffer, C. Cirelli, A. Staudte, R. Dörner, H. G. Muller, M. Büttiker, U. Keller, Attosecond Ionization and Tunneling Delay Time Measurements in Helium, Science,
Vol. 322. no. 5907, pp. 1525 – 1529 (2008) http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/a ... /5907/1525

8. Robert B. Griffiths, Shengjun Wu, Li Yu, Scott M. Cohen, Atemporal diagrams for quantum circuits, submitted on 21 Jul 2005, http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0507215

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GJ
Prispevkov: 2635
Pridružen: 27.1.2003 22:08

Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a GJ »

amrit napisal/-a:roman jaz nisem filozof
jaz sem meditator - naravoslovec
expert za čas, ki ga ni
Na tem forumu se ne meditira (sanjari) ampak se pogovarja zgolj o realnih znanstveno dokazljivih stvareh.
Torej si zopet zgrešil forum!
amrit napisal/-a:Introduction
There is no experimental evidence for space-time existing as physical reality.
Zgolj v tvojih meditacijah (beri sanjah)!
V prejšnem postu sem ti lepo napisal, da je hitrost fotona v prostoru vedno absoluta! Relativna pa je glede na opazovalca!
Torej povezava prostor-čas nedvoumno obstaja!

Vsako nadaljnje branje tvojega skrapucala, za katerega se nisi niti toliko potrudil, da bi ga prevedel v Slovenščino, nima nobenega smisla! :oops:

Lep dan...

Roman
Prispevkov: 6598
Pridružen: 21.10.2003 8:03

Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a Roman »

Kot izvedenec za čas (ki ga po tvojem ni) mi navedi, kdo zagovarja prvi pristop k času (da je namreč ta sestavni del prostora). Je pa seveda sestavni del prostorčasa,kar je nekaj povsem drugega. Trditev, da ta pristop nima eksperimantalne evidence, je točna samo v primeru, ko zavržeš vso eksperimentalno evidenco. Pravi naravoslovec tega ne more storiti. Poleg tega tudi nikjer ne razložiš, kaj naj bi bil numerični red materialnih sprememb. V bistvu sploh ne odgovoriš na nobeno od postavljenih vprašanj. Misliš, da si to kot izvedenec lahko privoščiš?

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=)
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Pridružen: 18.7.2004 22:28

Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a =) »

Amrit, res bi se lahko malo bolj potrudil in odgovoril na vprašanja, namesto da limaš komentarje, ki niso v slovenščini.
Tudi mene zanima kaj je numerični red materialnih sprememb. Pa kaj misliš s trajanjem gibanja fizikalnih objektov. Ali pa kaj je strukturalna kvaliteta gravitacijskega polja...

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amrit
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Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a amrit »

v fiziki moramo prebuditi opazovalca..............
http://www.fqxi.org/data/forum-attachme ... i_2009.pdf
pa bo vse bolj jasno

lep večer amrit

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shrink
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Pridružen: 4.9.2004 18:45

Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

amrit napisal/-a:v fiziki moramo prebuditi opazovalca..............
http://www.fqxi.org/data/forum-attachme ... i_2009.pdf
pa bo vse bolj jasno
Fizikom je jasno, da so šarlatanski opazovalci v globoki komi. :lol:

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GJ
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Pridružen: 27.1.2003 22:08

Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a GJ »

amrit napisal/-a:v fiziki moramo prebuditi opazovalca..............
Kaj pa, če bi se ti prizemljil???

Lep dan...

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=)
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Pridružen: 18.7.2004 22:28

Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a =) »

Prebudi se!
Slika




:wink: vsi poiskusi so zaman...

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amrit
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Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a amrit »

roman "subkvanten" v smisli "subatomski", se pravi delci ali mogoče bolje valovi (vibracije) prostora, ki formirajo materijo
materija je zgoščena energija prostora

glede časa pa velki fiziki razmišljajo, da je resnično brezčasno

poglej si na

http://www.fqxi.org/grants/large/awarde ... 08/dowling

Roman
Prispevkov: 6598
Pridružen: 21.10.2003 8:03

Re: Physics Without Time As a Fundamental Physical Reality

Odgovor Napisal/-a Roman »

Prostor ima svojo energijo? Energija česa pa naj bi bila svetloba? In kaj vibrira pri vibracijah? In kako naj razumem mnenje velikih fizikov, da je čas brezčasen? Kdo je zate velik fizik?

Bo šlo?

Odgovori