ASEA

Kaj bi bilo, če bi lahko ... ?
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Motore
Prispevkov: 1101
Pridružen: 9.9.2009 23:28

Re: ASEA

Odgovor Napisal/-a Motore »

tonymk napisal/-a:Jaz imam dokaze, izvide krvnih preiskav
Kakšen dokaz pa je to? Ok, bom poskušal tudi jaz nekaj "dokazati":
Vsako večer pred spanjem si umijem zobe, zjutraj pa vedno vzide sonce. Dokazal sem, da je vzhajanje sonca posledica mojega umivanja zob. Resno upam, da kdaj ne pozabim tega opravila, saj bom verjetno povzročil obilico težav. :oops:

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vojko
Prispevkov: 11591
Pridružen: 29.5.2004 15:18
Kraj: LIMBUŠ
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Re: ASEA

Odgovor Napisal/-a vojko »

Motore napisal/-a:
tonymk napisal/-a:Jaz imam dokaze, izvide krvnih preiskav
Kakšen dokaz pa je to? Ok, bom poskušal tudi jaz nekaj "dokazati":
Vsako večer pred spanjem si umijem zobe, zjutraj pa vedno vzide sonce. Dokazal sem, da je vzhajanje sonca posledica mojega umivanja zob. Resno upam, da kdaj ne pozabim tega opravila, saj bom verjetno povzročil obilico težav. :oops:
:D :!: :D :!:

tonymk
Prispevkov: 27
Pridružen: 1.7.2013 11:12

Re: ASEA

Odgovor Napisal/-a tonymk »

lb713
Influence of a redox-signaling supplement on biomarkers of physiological stress in athletes: a metabolomics approach
R. Andrew Shanely1, David C. Nieman1, Dru A. Henson1, Amy M. Knab1, Lynn Cialdella-Kam1, Mary Pat Meaney1, Sara Baxter2 and Wei Sha3
1 Human Performance Laboratory, Appalachian State University, UNC-Charlotte, North Carolina Research Campus, Kannapolis, NC
2 Analytical Sciences, David H. Murdock Research Institute, UNC-Charlotte, North Carolina Research Campus, Kannapolis, NC
3 Bioinformatics Services Division, UNC-Charlotte, North Carolina Research Campus, Kannapolis, NC

We determined if drinking ASEA™, a redox-signaling molecule beverage, would improve cycling performance, counter inflammation, oxidative stress, and immune dysfunction, and alter the metabolite profile. Cyclists (n = 20) participated in a randomized, double blinded, placebo controlled, crossover study. Subjects completed two 75km time trials (TT) after 1 wk ingestion of 118 mL/d ASEA or placebo (PL). Subjects ingested 473 mL ASEA or PL during the TT. Blood samples were taken pre, post, 1h post-exercise (Ex). ASEA did not improve TT performance (p = .95). The Ex-induced pattern of change in inflammation, oxidative stress, and immunity did not differ (p>.05) between ASEA vs. PL. The metabolomic profiles (GC/MS) of ASEA and PL samples were clearly separated by partial least square discriminant analysis when using pre-Ex data (Q2Y = .71), and when using the ratio of 1h post-Ex to pre-Ex (Q2Y = .68). Linear modeling found that ASEA supplementation caused a significant shift in 43 metabolites pre-Ex, especially free fatty acids, suggesting an enhanced fat oxidation and amino acid sparing, with an increase in ascorbic acid, during Ex. Within the context of this study, 1-wk ASEA supplementation caused extensive fatty acid mobilization before and during Ex, with no apparent influence on TT performance and traditional biomarkers of inflammation, oxidative stress, and immunity.

Funding, Reoxcyn Discoveries Group

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shrink
Prispevkov: 14584
Pridružen: 4.9.2004 18:45

Re: ASEA

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

tonymk napisal/-a:lb713
Influence of a redox-signaling supplement on biomarkers of physiological stress in athletes: a metabolomics approach
R. Andrew Shanely1, David C. Nieman1, Dru A. Henson1, Amy M. Knab1, Lynn Cialdella-Kam1, Mary Pat Meaney1, Sara Baxter2 and Wei Sha3
1 Human Performance Laboratory, Appalachian State University, UNC-Charlotte, North Carolina Research Campus, Kannapolis, NC
2 Analytical Sciences, David H. Murdock Research Institute, UNC-Charlotte, North Carolina Research Campus, Kannapolis, NC
3 Bioinformatics Services Division, UNC-Charlotte, North Carolina Research Campus, Kannapolis, NC

We determined if drinking ASEA™, a redox-signaling molecule beverage, would improve cycling performance, counter inflammation, oxidative stress, and immune dysfunction, and alter the metabolite profile. Cyclists (n = 20) participated in a randomized, double blinded, placebo controlled, crossover study. Subjects completed two 75km time trials (TT) after 1 wk ingestion of 118 mL/d ASEA or placebo (PL). Subjects ingested 473 mL ASEA or PL during the TT. Blood samples were taken pre, post, 1h post-exercise (Ex). ASEA did not improve TT performance (p = .95). The Ex-induced pattern of change in inflammation, oxidative stress, and immunity did not differ (p>.05) between ASEA vs. PL. The metabolomic profiles (GC/MS) of ASEA and PL samples were clearly separated by partial least square discriminant analysis when using pre-Ex data (Q2Y = .71), and when using the ratio of 1h post-Ex to pre-Ex (Q2Y = .68). Linear modeling found that ASEA supplementation caused a significant shift in 43 metabolites pre-Ex, especially free fatty acids, suggesting an enhanced fat oxidation and amino acid sparing, with an increase in ascorbic acid, during Ex. Within the context of this study, 1-wk ASEA supplementation caused extensive fatty acid mobilization before and during Ex, with no apparent influence on TT performance and traditional biomarkers of inflammation, oxidative stress, and immunity.

Funding, Reoxcyn Discoveries Group
A te daje amnezija (drugič)? A nisi opazil, da si to že navedel v predprejšnjem postu (drugič)? Replika bo seveda enaka (drugič):

Iz že navedenega linka:
A small study of cyclists was done with a crossover control but with no placebo control. It measured a number of changes in metabolites that “may represent effects on inflammation, oxidative stress, and physiologic stress.”
In še naprej:
Not a single placebo-controlled study. Worse, these studies were “in house” studies that were never published in a peer-reviewed journal. Steven Novella recently pointed out the unreliability of such studies.

Nothing listed in PubMed. Without replication, peer review, and better designed studies, this research does not constitute any credible evidence to support the claims for ASEA. They have made what Carl Sagan would have called extraordinary claims and they have not even provided any ordinary evidence, much less any extraordinary evidence.
:lol:


tonymk
Prispevkov: 27
Pridružen: 1.7.2013 11:12

Re: ASEA

Odgovor Napisal/-a tonymk »

In seveda Jay Novela je preverljiv, najdeš ga na Facebook, linkedin, google+ :lol:

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shrink
Prispevkov: 14584
Pridružen: 4.9.2004 18:45

Re: ASEA

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

tonymk napisal/-a:Stalno ponavljaš en in isti link, pa ja bi ti lahko googlanje prineslo še kakšen link :lol:
Hah, šarlatanski promotor "požegnane" vode, saj si ti tisti, ki je že 3x navedel eno in isto šarlatansko "študijo" in če sem seveda prvič navedel link, ki kaže, koliko je vredna ta "študija" (t.j. niti piškavega drobiža :lol: ), bom seveda še drugič in tretjič. Slika
Še četrtič navedena šarlatanska "študija" - šarlatanski promotor "požegnane" vode pa bi razpredal o ponavljanju. Slika
Še petič navedena šarlatanska "študija" - šarlatanski promotor "požegnane" vode pa bi razpredal o ponavljanju. Slika
Psevdoznanstveno nakladanje promotorjev "požegnane" vode. Slika
Še šestič navedena šarlatanska "študija" - šarlatanski promotor "požegnane" vode pa bi razpredal o ponavljanju. Slika

Četrtič, petič in šestič navedena ena in ista šarlatanska "študija" bo pač dobila isto repliko:

Iz že navedenega linka:
A small study of cyclists was done with a crossover control but with no placebo control. It measured a number of changes in metabolites that “may represent effects on inflammation, oxidative stress, and physiologic stress.”
In še naprej:
Not a single placebo-controlled study. Worse, these studies were “in house” studies that were never published in a peer-reviewed journal. Steven Novella recently pointed out the unreliability of such studies.

Nothing listed in PubMed. Without replication, peer review, and better designed studies, this research does not constitute any credible evidence to support the claims for ASEA. They have made what Carl Sagan would have called extraordinary claims and they have not even provided any ordinary evidence, much less any extraordinary evidence.
Slika
tonymk napisal/-a:In seveda Jay Novela je preverljiv, najdeš ga na Facebook, linkedin, google+ :lol:
Vsakdo količkaj naravoslovno razgledan lahko preveri, da je ASEA ravno tako učinkovita kot "požegnana voda", da ne premore niti ene študije, ki bi dokazovala njeno učinkovitost, in da je navajanje "redoks signalnih molekul" v zvezi z njo čisto psevdoznanstveno nakladanje. Skratka: gre za "porez na budale". Slika

Ampak ker se že spotikaš ob Jayja Novello, zakaj se še ne spotakneš ob Stevena Novello, ki je v bistvu glavni urednik tiste strani (Science-Based Medicine)? Aja, saj res: bolj težko se je spotakniti ob kliničnega nevrologa in profesorja na medicinski fakulteti Univerze Yale. Slika Slika Slika Slika Slika

tonymk
Prispevkov: 27
Pridružen: 1.7.2013 11:12

Re: ASEA

Odgovor Napisal/-a tonymk »

Spominjaš me na inkvizitorje.
Če si upaš misliti drugače si za na grmado. :lol:

tonymk
Prispevkov: 27
Pridružen: 1.7.2013 11:12

Re: ASEA

Odgovor Napisal/-a tonymk »

Kakšen dokaz pa je to? Ok, bom poskušal tudi jaz nekaj "dokazati":
Vsako večer pred spanjem si umijem zobe, zjutraj pa vedno vzide sonce. Dokazal sem, da je vzhajanje sonca posledica mojega umivanja zob. Resno upam, da kdaj ne pozabim tega opravila, saj bom verjetno povzročil obilico težav.
Dokazal boš, ko si boš nehal umivati zobe, in sonce ne bo vzšlo. :lol:

Roman
Prispevkov: 6454
Pridružen: 21.10.2003 8:03

Re: ASEA

Odgovor Napisal/-a Roman »

Pa misliš, da je dobro tvegati vzhajanje sonca zaradi enega tako banalnega dokazovanja?

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bargo
Prispevkov: 8027
Pridružen: 3.11.2004 22:41

Re: ASEA

Odgovor Napisal/-a bargo »

Roman napisal/-a:Pa misliš, da je dobro tvegati vzhajanje sonca zaradi enega tako banalnega dokazovanja?
Očitno je vznemirljivo tvegati, brez da se tveganja zavedaš. Vera je močna in mična blondinka. :wink:

Motore
Prispevkov: 1101
Pridružen: 9.9.2009 23:28

Re: ASEA

Odgovor Napisal/-a Motore »

tonymk napisal/-a:Dokazal boš, ko si boš nehal umivati zobe, in sonce ne bo vzšlo.
Kaj pa če bo sonce vzšlo? Ali to pomeni, da moje umivanje zob ni bil vzrok? Znanost bi sicer rekla da, ampak šarlatani bi seveda znova dobili neko stvar, ki bi kao pokazala korelacijo med mojim umivanjem zob in vzhajanjem sonca, čeprav je še tako nesmiselna.
Pa saj vidiš kaj hočem tu povedati, zato razmisli malo kakšne "dokaze" ponujaš.

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shrink
Prispevkov: 14584
Pridružen: 4.9.2004 18:45

Re: ASEA

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

tonymk napisal/-a:Spominjaš me na inkvizitorje.
Če si upaš misliti drugače si za na grmado. :lol:
Z omenjanjem inkvizicije si si pravkar prislužil 40 točk po Baezovem šarlatanskem indeksu. :lol:

Sicer pa častilcev "žegnane vode" znanost nikakor nima namena kakorkoli omejevati (kaj šele kaznovati), zgolj primerno oznako jim podeljuje: naivneži, ki plačujejo "porez na budale". :lol:

tonymk
Prispevkov: 27
Pridružen: 1.7.2013 11:12

Re: ASEA

Odgovor Napisal/-a tonymk »

Zame je dokaz:

Moji izvidi krvi pred uporabo ASEA, zgodovina moje bolezni cca 20 let, in izvidi krvi po 2 mesecih uživanja ASEA.
Prej bolezen, sedaj bolezni ni, po uradni medicini velja pa za neozdravljivo.
Če je to porez na budale, tudi prav.
Če s takim "porezom na budale" živim kot zdrav človek potem je vreden vsakega centa.

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shrink
Prispevkov: 14584
Pridružen: 4.9.2004 18:45

Re: ASEA

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

Seveda, tonymk, tako kot je dokaz za vernika, da sta ga ozdravila en očenaš ali dva, "porez na budale" pa se je materializiral v novem terencu vaškega farja. :lol:

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