Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Kaj bi bilo, če bi lahko ... ?
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nitsnls
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Pridružen: 30.3.2011 9:10

Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a nitsnls »

shrink napisal/-a:Daj, no, zeleni spranec: oglej si že enkrat videe, v katerih je jasno, kako Geller goljufa.
Naj tu citiram David Copperfielda:
"You know, I like Uri Geller. He is a good guy. I think he made many things with his abilities. I think some of the things he shows are illusion. But I cannot claim for sure, that this applies to everything." David Copperfield

S strani znanstvenikov so bili izvedeni tudi testi, naj jih ponovno navedem?

shrink napisal/-a:
Omenjaš poltergeiste:
1.) kaj sploh hočeš povedati glede tega?
2.) navedi argumente za svojo trditev
Saj je jasno, kaj hočem povedati: opiraš se na šarlatane, ki so vredni le posmeha.
Argumentiraj.
Zadnjič spremenil nitsnls, dne 10.9.2011 2:04, skupaj popravljeno 2 krat.

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shrink
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Pridružen: 4.9.2004 18:45

Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

nitsnls napisal/-a:Moderatorja naprošam naj s shrinkovim predlogom še malo počaka.
Ni potrebe: Geller ne spada v to temo.
nitsnls napisal/-a:
shrink napisal/-a: Samo po mnenju tistih, ki branijo šarlatane, katere je Randi razkrinkal. :lol:
Premoreš toliko poguma, da se podpišeš z imenom in priimkom?
Hah, anonimnež se oglaša. :lol:
shrink napisal/-a: Na kratko: zgolj še en CENZURA, ki brez nobene osnove kritizira Randija.
Lažeš!
Če si pogledal video vidiš, da je Randi goljufal.
Daj, no, zeleni spranec: oglej si že enkrat videe, v katerih je jasno, kako Geller goljufa (n-tič). :lol:

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shrink
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Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

nitsnls napisal/-a:
shrink napisal/-a:Daj, no, zeleni spranec: oglej si že enkrat videe, v katerih je jasno, kako Geller goljufa.
Naj tu citiram David Copperfielda:
"You know, I like Uri Geller. He is a good guy. I think he made many things with his abilities. I think some of the things he shows are illusion. But I cannot claim for sure, that this applies to everything." David Copperfield
It has been commented by some, including skeptical writer Martin Gardner (who is well-trained in magical techniques), that Geller's magic is rather amateurish and mediocre, and that his entire reputation rests on the assertion of psychic powers, allowing him an out if a trick fails, something that happens often in the presence of a skeptical audience. :lol:
Daj, no, zeleni spranec: oglej si že enkrat videe, v katerih je jasno, kako Geller goljufa.
shrink napisal/-a:
Omenjaš poltergeiste:
1.) kaj sploh hočeš povedati glede tega?
2.) navedi argumente za svojo trditev
Saj je jasno, kaj hočem povedati: opiraš se na šarlatane, ki so vredni le posmeha
Argumentiraj.
Saj si razumel, zeleni spranec. :lol:

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shrink
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Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

nitsnls napisal/-a:S strani znanstvenikov so bili izvedeni tudi testi, naj jih ponovno navedem?
Samo zate še enkrat, zeleni spranec:
Critics of this testing include psychologists Dr. David Marks and Dr. Richard Kammann, who published a description of how Geller could have cheated in an informal test of his so-called psychic powers in 1977.Their 1978 article in Nature and 1980 book The Psychology of the Psychic (2nd ed. 2000) described how a normal explanation was possible for Geller's alleged powers of telepathy. Marks and Kammann found evidence that while at SRI Geller was allowed to peek through a hole in the laboratory wall separating Geller from the drawings he was being invited to reproduce. The drawings he was asked to reproduce were placed on a wall opposite the peep hole which the investigators Targ and Puthoff had stuffed with cotton gauze. In addition to this error, the investigators had also allowed Geller access to a two-way intercom enabling Geller to listen to the investigators' conversation during the time when they were choosing and/or displaying the target drawings. These basic errors indicate the high importance of ensuring that psychologists, magicians or other people with an in-depth knowledge of perception, who are trained in methods for blocking sensory cues, be present during the testing of psychics.
Geller is notoriously litigious [tipično za šarlatana :lol: ], and has on many occasions attempted to use this study (considered flawed at best by experts on magic and pathological science) as a cudgel in court against his opponents, particularly against Randi.[4] Despite this, Geller typically loses in court battles :lol: .
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

nitsnls
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Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a nitsnls »

Svoje začetne trditve nisi dokazal, vse kar si ponudil je Randijeva domneva, z drugimi besedami, špekulacije sovražno razpoloženega ateista, odrskega čarovnika, ki se je v svoji karieri večkrat posluževal umazanih trikov, dokazanega lažnivca, sleparja, ki povrh vsega sploh ni znanstvenik; jaz sem na drugi strani podal ocene pravih znanstvenikov, ki so Gellerja testirali v uglednih znanstvenih inštitucijah kot je npr. Stamford, poleg te študije pa je bilo izvedenih še vsaj 17 drugih in zaključki znanstvenikov, ki so v njih prisostvovali so pozitivni, o Gellerju sam nisem sodil.

Ironija je ta, da ti, ki se imaš za zagovornika znanosti v tem primeru sploh nisi na njeni strani, vendar samo za nepoučenega bralca: resnica je, da ti sploh nimaš veze z znanostjo! shrink, Roman, motore, nosee, se opravičujem če sem koga pozabil, ste sramota znanosti! Avtoriteto znanosti zlorabljate za uveljavljanje svoje ateistične materialistične ideologije, vas resnica ne zanima, trmasto zavračate vse dokaze, ki se z vašo ideologijo ne ujemajo, ideologijo ki predstavlja same temelje vsega zla na tem svetu. Znanstvenike, med njimi Nobelove nagrajence, ki so se ukvarjali oz. se ukvarjajo s paranormalnim, pa označite za šarlatane, seveda brez argumentov, anonimni strahopetci pa seveda tudi ne premorete toliko poguma da bi se pod svoje zmazke osebno podpisali.
Skrite se v mišje luknje!

P.S.
Moja domneva je, da je shrink pravzaprav Jure Zupan, domnevo lahko n e d v o u m n o ovrže le shrink, naj ima tokrat on zadnjo besedo, v kolikor sem se zmotil se Juretu iskreno opravičujem.

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shrink
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Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

nitsnls napisal/-a:Svoje začetne trditve nisi dokazal, vse kar si ponudil je Randijeva domneva, z drugimi besedami, špekulacije sovražno razpoloženega ateista, odrskega čarovnika, ki se je v svoji karieri večkrat posluževal umazanih trikov, dokazanega lažnivca, sleparja, ki povrh vsega sploh ni znanstvenik; jaz sem na drugi strani podal ocene pravih znanstvenikov, ki so Gellerja testirali v uglednih znanstvenih inštitucijah kot je npr. Stamford, poleg te študije pa je bilo izvedenih še vsaj 17 drugih in zaključki znanstvenikov, ki so v njih prisostvovali so pozitivni, o Gellerju sam nisem sodil.
Da je Geller goljuf, je nesporno dokazano: Če bi si zeleni spranec že enkrat ogledal videe, v katerih se jasno vidi, kakšne trike uporablja ta CENZURA, bi to tudi sam ugotovil. Testi "pravih znanstvenikov" na Stanfordu pa so ničvredni:
Critics of this testing include psychologists Dr. David Marks and Dr. Richard Kammann, who published a description of how Geller could have cheated in an informal test of his so-called psychic powers in 1977.Their 1978 article in Nature and 1980 book The Psychology of the Psychic (2nd ed. 2000) described how a normal explanation was possible for Geller's alleged powers of telepathy. Marks and Kammann found evidence that while at SRI Geller was allowed to peek through a hole in the laboratory wall separating Geller from the drawings he was being invited to reproduce. The drawings he was asked to reproduce were placed on a wall opposite the peep hole which the investigators Targ and Puthoff had stuffed with cotton gauze. In addition to this error, the investigators had also allowed Geller access to a two-way intercom enabling Geller to listen to the investigators' conversation during the time when they were choosing and/or displaying the target drawings. These basic errors indicate the high importance of ensuring that psychologists, magicians or other people with an in-depth knowledge of perception, who are trained in methods for blocking sensory cues, be present during the testing of psychics.
Ostali pa so bili seveda nategnjeni s strani tvojega idola. Tvoj argument, da Randi ni znanstvenik, pa je tipičen argument proti slamnatemu možu. Randiju ni treba biti znanstvenik, da je kompetenten za razkrinkanje goljufov in šarlatanov. Poleg tega - in s tem zeleni spranec očitno ni seznanjen - je Randi sodeloval z najbolj prestižnimi znanstvenimi revijami (npr. z Nature v primeru Bienveniste - to sem zelenemu sprancu že povedal) in je redno vabljen na predavanja na najbolj prestižne univerze (o čemer razni lovci na poltergeiste, ki jih zeleni spranec brez zadrege citira, lahko samo sanjajo :lol: ) in to bi lahko tudi zeleni spranec sam ugotovil, če bi si le ogledal posnetke predavanja Randija na CALTECH-u (upam, da zeleni spranec ve, da je to ena izmed najboljših univerz na svetu). :lol:
nitsnls napisal/-a:Ironija je ta, da ti, ki se imaš za zagovornika znanosti v tem primeru sploh nisi na njeni strani, vendar samo za nepoučenega bralca: resnica je, da ti sploh nimaš veze z znanostjo!
Ravno nasprotno, zeleni spranec: Randi je na strani znanosti - beri zgoraj in se izobrazi. :lol:
shrink, Roman, motore, nosee, se opravičujem če sem koga pozabil, ste sramota znanosti!
Sram naj bo nasilnega zelenega spranca, ki je zmožen zgolj spamanja:

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=4371&start=15

in zmerjanja:

viewtopic.php?p=55401#p55401
Avtoriteto znanosti zlorabljate za uveljavljanje svoje ateistične materialistične ideologije, vas resnica ne zanima, trmasto zavračate vse dokaze, ki se z vašo ideologijo ne ujemajo, ideologijo ki predstavlja same temelje vsega zla na tem svetu.
Čisto nakladanje zelenega spranca, ki se mu lahko samo smejem.
Znanstvenike, med njimi Nobelove nagrajence, ki so se ukvarjali oz. se ukvarjajo s paranormalnim, pa označite za šarlatane, seveda brez argumentov, anonimni strahopetci pa seveda tudi ne premorete toliko poguma da bi se pod svoje zmazke osebno podpisali.
Paranormalno je dejansko šarlatanstvo, seveda pa morajo tisti, ki verjamejo v mumbo-jumbo zadeve, dokazati, da je kaj na tem. Seveda tega niso zmožni in zato je lahko govora le o šarlatanskem nakladanju (kar je seveda mnenje znanosti nasploh). In nek nobelovec (Josephson), ki verjame v paranormalno, a za to ne ponudi nobenih dokazov, je ravno tako CENZURA kot vsi ostali, ki v to verjamejo; pa ne glede na njegovo preteklost.
Skrite se v mišje luknje!
Ti se kar vrni nazaj v svoje loge (zelenospranih šarlatanov), kajti več kot očitno je, da se na tem forumu samo smešiš.
P.S.
Moja domneva je, da je shrink pravzaprav Jure Zupan, domnevo lahko n e d v o u m n o ovrže le shrink, naj ima tokrat on zadnjo besedo, v kolikor sem se zmotil se Juretu iskreno opravičujem.
Seveda si spet pogorel na celi črti. :lol:

nitsnls
Prispevkov: 149
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Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a nitsnls »

shrink napisal/-a:Paranormalno je dejansko šarlatanstvo, seveda pa morajo tisti, ki verjamejo v mumbo-jumbo zadeve, dokazati, da je kaj na tem. Seveda tega niso zmožni in zato je lahko govora le o šarlatanskem nakladanju (kar je seveda mnenje znanosti nasploh).
Spodaj imaš dokaze, sedaj si na vrsti ti, da jih ovržeš, bo šlo?
One million dollars is offered to any closed minded skeptic who can rebut the existing evidence for life after death.

Closed-minded skeptics and other materialists: some of those whom are psychologists, ex-magicians, biologists, physicists and others, have miserably failed to rebut expressly stated evidence for the existence of the afterlife - life after death.

By contrast, more scientists, more physicists, more psychologists and more people in the professions and others are conceding the empirical evidence for the afterlife is just irrefutable.

http://www.victorzammit.com/
shrink napisal/-a:kar je seveda mnenje znanosti nasploh
Zgolj mnenje strahopetnega anonimneža. :lol:

Motore
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Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a Motore »

Nitsnls saj nisi resen, kakšni dokazi o posmrtnem življenju pa so to? Nekaj citatov
On his website Victor describes himself as "a full time writer and researcher on empirical evidence for the afterlife." This is rather an ambiguous description since 'empirical' can mean 'relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory'. A central concept in science and the scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical, or empirically based, that is, dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses. And since most, if not all, of David Thompson's phenomena is produced in the dark then the primary sense Victor is relying upon during these seances is his hearing. Hardly scientific, is it? Moreover, in the cases of Houdini, Churchill and Doyle (zakaj ravno ti ljudje?) the voices sound nothing like they did on earth and do not provide any audible evidence whatsoever in order to substantiate their validity.

So, upon what exact evidence is Victor basing his assumptions upon? A voice in the dark claiming to be Harry Houdini or Conan Doyle? As 'evidence', this is totally unscientific and can only be dismissed as ridiculous.

As a lawyer, Victor claims he is "an expert in the admissibility of evidence" and I also has "qualifications in scientific method". Then Victor should know that only relevant evidence is admissible. Admissible evidence, in a court of law, is any testimonial, documentary, or tangible evidence that may be introduced to a judge or jury in order to establish or to bolster a point put forth by a party to the proceeding. In order for evidence to be admissible, it must be relevant, without being prejudicial, and it must have some indicia of reliability. It must also tend to prove or disprove some fact that is at issue in the proceeding.

None of the recordings of alleged deceased personalities 'prove or disprove' anything.

As to Victor's reference to the scientific method, let us look firstly at what the scientific method is:

The scientific method is the process by which scientists, collectively and over time, endeavour to construct an accurate (that is, reliable, consistent and non-arbitrary) representation of the world. It has 4 steps:

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena. 2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. 3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations. 4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.


Victor Zammit has not produced any evidence whatsoever by means of the full scientific method.
Victor Zammit je še en primer šarlatana in njegovi "dokazi" nimajo veze z znanstveno metodo.

nitsnls
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Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a nitsnls »


Roman
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Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a Roman »

nitsnls napisal/-a:Roman, motore, nosee, se opravičujem če sem koga pozabil, ste sramota znanosti!
Za znanost, kot jo ti pojmuješ, prav gotovo. Nobenega razloga ni, da bi se moral tega sramovati.
nitsnls napisal/-a:Spodaj imaš dokaze, sedaj si na vrsti ti, da jih ovržeš, bo šlo?
Naj pogledam, kaj sploh možakar trdi:
First, there are Near-Death Experiences, or NDEs.
Second, there are out-of-body journeys and the experiences of shamans and remote viewers.
Third, there is direct experience through apparitions, clairvoyance, clairaudience and deathbed visions.
Fourth, there are revelations through other than conscious states of awareness, such as hypnosis, dreams and holotropic states. (The word holotropic is from the Greek holos, meaning “whole,” and trepein, meaning “moving or oriented towards.” It relates to a powerful method of self-exploration, personal transformation, and healing created by Christina and Stanislav Grof, M.D.)
Fifth, there are revelations through mediums (mental mediums, trance mediums and materialization mediums) from loved ones who have died.
Sixth, there are revelations through electronic voice phenomena (EVP) and instrumental trans-communication (ITC).
Seventh, there are transmissions from spirit teachers of high degree speaking through mediums, channellers and automatic writers.
Dokazi? Pa saj nisi resen.

nitsnls
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Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a nitsnls »

Roman napisal/-a:
nitsnls napisal/-a:Roman, motore, nosee, se opravičujem če sem koga pozabil, ste sramota znanosti!
Za znanost, kot jo ti pojmuješ, prav gotovo. Nobenega razloga ni, da bi se moral tega sramovati.
Dejstvo je, da si ti Roman pripadnik ideologije materializma, kar si tudi sam napisal, tvoje mnenje o svetu je izdelano, svojih a priori prepričanj ne boš spremenil in boš fanatično vztrajal pri njih, tudi takrat ko veš, da to kar počneš ni prav, včasih si nekaj omenjal resnico in sem tvoje prispevke cenil a sem uvidel iz kakšnega testa si in tvoje mnenje me sploh več ne zanima. Vzel bi nazaj le besedo prokleti, ni potrebna, tisti prispevek sem sicer izbrisal a vseeno.
Zadnjič spremenil nitsnls, dne 11.9.2011 15:35, skupaj popravljeno 1 krat.

Motore
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Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a Motore »

nitsnls napisal/-a:Motore, preberi si npr. to:
http://www.victorzammit.com/articles/cr ... ARTONE.htm

:lol: :lol:
Ja, pa poglejmo bolj podrobno
This would be fairly close to a real 'cross-examination'
Torej je namišljeno navzkrižno zasliševanje.
The information is taken from what Randi has ALREADY STATED ACCEPTED and IMPLIED.
Zelo resno dokazovanje z impliciranjem.
Some very minor flexibility and embellishment consistent with Randi’s beliefs and record have been used for easier reading and understanding of the script.
Torej je popolnoma izmišljeno za njegov prav. Bravo.
Words in caps are there for emphasis - which is critical during cross-examination.
Da se vidi samo tisto kar Victor hoče da vidimo.

Kakorkoli, FABRIKIRANO, NAMIŠLJENO zasliševanje s strani s strani ŠARLATANA, ki veruje v POLTERGEISTE in POSMRTNO ŽIVLJENJE z dokazi ki NISO dobljeni po ZNANSTVENI METODI. Ja zelo dobri argumenti.

nitsnls
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Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a nitsnls »

Motore, do your homework.

Ti veš koliko znanstvenikov je omenjenih v tem poročilu in njih boš ti imenoval za šarlatane, pa kdo si ti?
-> Anonimni strahopetec.

Motore
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Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a Motore »

nitsnls napisal/-a:Motore, do your homework.

Ti veš koliko znanstvenikov je omenjenih v tem poročilu in njih boš ti imenoval za šarlatane, pa kdo si ti?
-> Anonimni strahopetec.
Briga me koliko znanstvenikov je omenjenih, kar me briga so dokazi dobljeni na podlagi znanstvene metode in dejstvo je da teh ni, ne od Victorja ne od "znanstvenikov", kar posledično pomeni da so de facto šarlatani.
Ad hominem pristopi, pa so od tebe že pričakovani.

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shrink
Prispevkov: 14610
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Re: Šarlatanstvo na prodajnih policah

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

nitsnls napisal/-a:
shrink napisal/-a:Paranormalno je dejansko šarlatanstvo, seveda pa morajo tisti, ki verjamejo v mumbo-jumbo zadeve, dokazati, da je kaj na tem. Seveda tega niso zmožni in zato je lahko govora le o šarlatanskem nakladanju (kar je seveda mnenje znanosti nasploh).
Spodaj imaš dokaze, sedaj si na vrsti ti, da jih ovržeš, bo šlo?
One million dollars is offered to any closed minded skeptic who can rebut the existing evidence for life after death.

Closed-minded skeptics and other materialists: some of those whom are psychologists, ex-magicians, biologists, physicists and others, have miserably failed to rebut expressly stated evidence for the existence of the afterlife - life after death.

By contrast, more scientists, more physicists, more psychologists and more people in the professions and others are conceding the empirical evidence for the afterlife is just irrefutable.

http://www.victorzammit.com/
Hah, Motore in Roman sta odlično odgovorila na te "dokaze" (beri: nakladanja, ki ničesar ne dokazujejo). :lol:
shrink napisal/-a:kar je seveda mnenje znanosti nasploh
Zgolj mnenje strahopetnega anonimneža. :lol:
Hah, na tem forumu smo več ali manj vsi anonimni. Če je sedaj zeleni spranec, ki samo spama in nasilno replicira, stopil na plano, mu to ne daje nikakršne kredibilnosti. Zelenega spranca, ki citira "lovce na poltergeiste" in podobne, pač v nobenem primeru ni za jemati resno. :lol:
nitsnls napisal/-a:
Roman napisal/-a:Za znanost, kot jo ti pojmuješ, prav gotovo. Nobenega razloga ni, da bi se moral tega sramovati.
Dejstvo je, da si ti Roman pripadnik ideologije materializma, kar si tudi sam napisal, tvoje mnenje o svetu je izdelano, svojih a priori prepričanj ne boš spremenil in boš fanatično vztrajal pri njih, tudi takrat ko veš, da to kar počneš ni prav, včasih si nekaj omenjal resnico in sem tvoje prispevke cenil a sem uvidel iz kakšnega testa si in tvoje mnenje me sploh več ne zanima. Vzel bi nazaj le besedo prokleti, ni potrebna, tisti prispevek sem sicer izbrisal a vseeno.
Hah, zeleni spranec se očitno ne zaveda, da je ravno v paranormalno treba a priori verjeti, saj ni na razpolago nobenega otipljivega dokaza za obstoj takih mumbo-jumbo zadev. In seveda pristaši takih šarlatanskih pogledov fanatično branijo goljufe tipa Geller ter žalijo, grozijo in se nasploh nasilno obnašajo do tistih, ki njihove idiotizme kritizirajo. Pač: tipično obnašanje s strani šarlatanov (že večkrat videno na tem forumu). :lol:

Odgovori