Časovna puščica

Prapok, vesolje, kozmologija, črne luknje...
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Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

kren napisal/-a:
shrink napisal/-a:
kren napisal/-a:V drugem členu sem mislil. Verjetno si takole mislil: \(f(r)\,dt^2 = f(r)\, dt\cdot dt\) ?
Ja, res malo nerodno zgleda, ampak tista pika je ločilo med dvemi povedmi.
A tako. Potem je pa seveda v redu. Sicer je pa ponavadi najbolje, da se poved ne začne z matematičnim simbolom, ampak z besedo (.. le kot dobronamerni nasvet).
V bistvu je bilo tam mišljeno dvopičje. Se je pa dalo iz besedila razbrati (pa tudi iz TeX sintakse), za kaj gre.

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Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a vojko »

Kaj menite o (po splošni oceni eni najboljših kratkih ZF zgodb) tejle Asimovi ZF noveli? Odpira dosti znanstveno-tehnoloških, pa tudi filozofskih vprašanj.

The Last Question by Isaac Asimov © 1956

The last question was asked for the first time, half in jest, on May 21, 2061, at a time when humanity first stepped into the light. The question came about as a result of a five dollar bet over highballs, and it happened this way:
Alexander Adell and Bertram Lupov were two of the faithful attendants of Multivac. As well as any human beings could, they knew what lay behind the cold, clicking, flashing face -- miles and miles of face -- of that giant computer. They had at least a vague notion of the general plan of relays and circuits that had long since grown past the point where any single human could possibly have a firm grasp of the whole.

Multivac was self-adjusting and self-correcting. It had to be, for nothing human could adjust and correct it quickly enough or even adequately enough -- so Adell and Lupov attended the monstrous giant only lightly and superficially, yet as well as any men could. They fed it data, adjusted questions to its needs and translated the answers that were issued. Certainly they, and all others like them, were fully entitled to share In the glory that was Multivac's.

For decades, Multivac had helped design the ships and plot the trajectories that enabled man to reach the Moon, Mars, and Venus, but past that, Earth's poor resources could not support the ships. Too much energy was needed for the long trips. Earth exploited its coal and uranium with increasing efficiency, but there was only so much of both.

But slowly Multivac learned enough to answer deeper questions more fundamentally, and on May 14, 2061, what had been theory, became fact.

The energy of the sun was stored, converted, and utilized directly on a planet-wide scale. All Earth turned off its burning coal, its fissioning uranium, and flipped the switch that connected all of it to a small station, one mile in diameter, circling the Earth at half the distance of the Moon. All Earth ran by invisible beams of sunpower.

Seven days had not sufficed to dim the glory of it and Adell and Lupov finally managed to escape from the public function, and to meet in quiet where no one would think of looking for them, in the deserted underground chambers, where portions of the mighty buried body of Multivac showed. Unattended, idling, sorting data with contented lazy clickings, Multivac, too, had earned its vacation and the boys appreciated that. They had no intention, originally, of disturbing it.

They had brought a bottle with them, and their only concern at the moment was to relax in the company of each other and the bottle.

"It's amazing when you think of it," said Adell. His broad face had lines of weariness in it, and he stirred his drink slowly with a glass rod, watching the cubes of ice slur clumsily about. "All the energy we can possibly ever use for free. Enough energy, if we wanted to draw on it, to melt all Earth into a big drop of impure liquid iron, and still never miss the energy so used. All the energy we could ever use, forever and forever and forever."

Lupov cocked his head sideways. He had a trick of doing that when he wanted to be contrary, and he wanted to be contrary now, partly because he had had to carry the ice and glassware. "Not forever," he said.

"Oh, hell, just about forever. Till the sun runs down, Bert."

"That's not forever."

"All right, then. Billions and billions of years. Twenty billion, maybe. Are you satisfied?"

Lupov put his fingers through his thinning hair as though to reassure himself that some was still left and sipped gently at his own drink. "Twenty billion years isn't forever."

"Will, it will last our time, won't it?"

"So would the coal and uranium."

"All right, but now we can hook up each individual spaceship to the Solar Station, and it can go to Pluto and back a million times without ever worrying about fuel. You can't do THAT on coal and uranium. Ask Multivac, if you don't believe me."

"I don't have to ask Multivac. I know that."

"Then stop running down what Multivac's done for us," said Adell, blazing up. "It did all right."

"Who says it didn't? What I say is that a sun won't last forever. That's all I'm saying. We're safe for twenty billion years, but then what?" Lupov pointed a slightly shaky finger at the other. "And don't say we'll switch to another sun."

There was silence for a while. Adell put his glass to his lips only occasionally, and Lupov's eyes slowly closed. They rested.

Then Lupov's eyes snapped open. "You're thinking we'll switch to another sun when ours is done, aren't you?"

"I'm not thinking."

"Sure you are. You're weak on logic, that's the trouble with you. You're like the guy in the story who was caught in a sudden shower and Who ran to a grove of trees and got under one. He wasn't worried, you see, because he figured when one tree got wet through, he would just get under another one."

"I get it," said Adell. "Don't shout. When the sun is done, the other stars will be gone, too."

"Darn right they will," muttered Lupov. "It all had a beginning in the original cosmic explosion, whatever that was, and it'll all have an end when all the stars run down. Some run down faster than others. Hell, the giants won't last a hundred million years. The sun will last twenty billion years and maybe the dwarfs will last a hundred billion for all the good they are. But just give us a trillion years and everything will be dark. Entropy has to increase to maximum, that's all."

"I know all about entropy," said Adell, standing on his dignity.

"The hell you do."

"I know as much as you do."

"Then you know everything's got to run down someday."

"All right. Who says they won't?"

"You did, you poor sap. You said we had all the energy we needed, forever. You said 'forever.'"

"It was Adell's turn to be contrary. "Maybe we can build things up again someday," he said.

"Never."

"Why not? Someday."

"Never."

"Ask Multivac."

"You ask Multivac. I dare you. Five dollars says it can't be done."

Adell was just drunk enough to try, just sober enough to be able to phrase the necessary symbols and operations into a question which, in words, might have corresponded to this: Will mankind one day without the net expenditure of energy be able to restore the sun to its full youthfulness even after it had died of old age?

Or maybe it could be put more simply like this: How can the net amount of entropy of the universe be massively decreased?

Multivac fell dead and silent. The slow flashing of lights ceased, the distant sounds of clicking relays ended.

Then, just as the frightened technicians felt they could hold their breath no longer, there was a sudden springing to life of the teletype attached to that portion of Multivac. Five words were printed: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

"No bet," whispered Lupov. They left hurriedly.

By next morning, the two, plagued with throbbing head and cottony mouth, had forgotten about the incident.



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Jerrodd, Jerrodine, and Jerrodette I and II watched the starry picture in the visiplate change as the passage through hyperspace was completed in its non-time lapse. At once, the even powdering of stars gave way to the predominance of a single bright marble-disk, centered.
"That's X-23," said Jerrodd confidently. His thin hands clamped tightly behind his back and the knuckles whitened.

The little Jerrodettes, both girls, had experienced the hyperspace passage for the first time in their lives and were self-conscious over the momentary sensation of inside-outness. They buried their giggles and chased one another wildly about their mother, screaming, "We've reached X-23 -- we've reached X-23 -- we've ----"

"Quiet, children," said Jerrodine sharply. "Are you sure, Jerrodd?"

"What is there to be but sure?" asked Jerrodd, glancing up at the bulge of featureless metal just under the ceiling. It ran the length of the room, disappearing through the wall at either end. It was as long as the ship.

Jerrodd scarcely knew a thing about the thick rod of metal except that it was called a Microvac, that one asked it questions if one wished; that if one did not it still had its task of guiding the ship to a preordered destination; of feeding on energies from the various Sub-galactic Power Stations; of computing the equations for the hyperspacial jumps.

Jerrodd and his family had only to wait and live in the comfortable residence quarters of the ship.

Someone had once told Jerrodd that the "ac" at the end of "Microvac" stood for "analog computer" in ancient English, but he was on the edge of forgetting even that.

Jerrodine's eyes were moist as she watched the visiplate. "I can't help it. I feel funny about leaving Earth."

"Why for Pete's sake?" demanded Jerrodd. "We had nothing there. We'll have everything on X-23. You won't be alone. You won't be a pioneer. There are over a million people on the planet already. Good Lord, our great grandchildren will be looking for new worlds because X-23 will be overcrowded."

Then, after a reflective pause, "I tell you, it's a lucky thing the computers worked out interstellar travel the way the race is growing."

"I know, I know," said Jerrodine miserably.

Jerrodette I said promptly, "Our Microvac is the best Microvac in the world."

"I think so, too," said Jerrodd, tousling her hair.

It was a nice feeling to have a Microvac of your own and Jerrodd was glad he was part of his generation and no other. In his father's youth, the only computers had been tremendous machines taking up a hundred square miles of land. There was only one to a planet. Planetary ACs they were called. They had been growing in size steadily for a thousand years and then, all at once, came refinement. In place of transistors had come molecular valves so that even the largest Planetary AC could be put into a space only half the volume of a spaceship.

Jerrodd felt uplifted, as he always did when he thought that his own personal Microvac was many times more complicated than the ancient and primitive Multivac that had first tamed the Sun, and almost as complicated as Earth's Planetary AC (the largest) that had first solved the problem of hyperspatial travel and had made trips to the stars possible.

"So many stars, so many planets," sighed Jerrodine, busy with her own thoughts. "I suppose families will be going out to new planets forever, the way we are now."

"Not forever," said Jerrodd, with a smile. "It will all stop someday, but not for billions of years. Many billions. Even the stars run down, you know. Entropy must increase."

"What's entropy, daddy?" shrilled Jerrodette II.

"Entropy, little sweet, is just a word which means the amount of running-down of the universe. Everything runs down, you know, like your little walkie-talkie robot, remember?"

"Can't you just put in a new power-unit, like with my robot?"

The stars are the power-units, dear. Once they're gone, there are no more power-units."

Jerrodette I at once set up a howl. "Don't let them, daddy. Don't let the stars run down."

"Now look what you've done, " whispered Jerrodine, exasperated.

"How was I to know it would frighten them?" Jerrodd whispered back.

"Ask the Microvac," wailed Jerrodette I. "Ask him how to turn the stars on again."

"Go ahead," said Jerrodine. "It will quiet them down." (Jerrodette II was beginning to cry, also.)

Jarrodd shrugged. "Now, now, honeys. I'll ask Microvac. Don't worry, he'll tell us."

He asked the Microvac, adding quickly, "Print the answer."

Jerrodd cupped the strip of thin cellufilm and said cheerfully, "See now, the Microvac says it will take care of everything when the time comes so don't worry."

Jerrodine said, "and now children, it's time for bed. We'll be in our new home soon."

Jerrodd read the words on the cellufilm again before destroying it: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

He shrugged and looked at the visiplate. X-23 was just ahead.



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VJ-23X of Lameth stared into the black depths of the three-dimensional, small-scale map of the Galaxy and said, "Are we ridiculous, I wonder, in being so concerned about the matter?"
MQ-17J of Nicron shook his head. "I think not. You know the Galaxy will be filled in five years at the present rate of expansion."

Both seemed in their early twenties, both were tall and perfectly formed.

"Still," said VJ-23X, "I hesitate to submit a pessimistic report to the Galactic Council."

"I wouldn't consider any other kind of report. Stir them up a bit. We've got to stir them up."

VJ-23X sighed. "Space is infinite. A hundred billion Galaxies are there for the taking. More."

"A hundred billion is not infinite and it's getting less infinite all the time. Consider! Twenty thousand years ago, mankind first solved the problem of utilizing stellar energy, and a few centuries later, interstellar travel became possible. It took mankind a million years to fill one small world and then only fifteen thousand years to fill the rest of the Galaxy. Now the population doubles every ten years --"

VJ-23X interrupted. "We can thank immortality for that."

"Very well. Immortality exists and we have to take it into account. I admit it has its seamy side, this immortality. The Galactic AC has solved many problems for us, but in solving the problems of preventing old age and death, it has undone all its other solutions."

"Yet you wouldn't want to abandon life, I suppose."

"Not at all," snapped MQ-17J, softening it at once to, "Not yet. I'm by no means old enough. How old are you?"

"Two hundred twenty-three. And you?"

"I'm still under two hundred. --But to get back to my point. Population doubles every ten years. Once this Galaxy is filled, we'll have another filled in ten years. Another ten years and we'll have filled two more. Another decade, four more. In a hundred years, we'll have filled a thousand Galaxies. In a thousand years, a million Galaxies. In ten thousand years, the entire known Universe. Then what?"

VJ-23X said, "As a side issue, there's a problem of transportation. I wonder how many sunpower units it will take to move Galaxies of individuals from one Galaxy to the next."

"A very good point. Already, mankind consumes two sunpower units per year."

"Most of it's wasted. After all, our own Galaxy alone pours out a thousand sunpower units a year and we only use two of those."

"Granted, but even with a hundred per cent efficiency, we can only stave off the end. Our energy requirements are going up in geometric progression even faster than our population. We'll run out of energy even sooner than we run out of Galaxies. A good point. A very good point."

"We'll just have to build new stars out of interstellar gas."

"Or out of dissipated heat?" asked MQ-17J, sarcastically.

"There may be some way to reverse entropy. We ought to ask the Galactic AC."

VJ-23X was not really serious, but MQ-17J pulled out his AC-contact from his pocket and placed it on the table before him.

"I've half a mind to," he said. "It's something the human race will have to face someday."

He stared somberly at his small AC-contact. It was only two inches cubed and nothing in itself, but it was connected through hyperspace with the great Galactic AC that served all mankind. Hyperspace considered, it was an integral part of the Galactic AC.

MQ-17J paused to wonder if someday in his immortal life he would get to see the Galactic AC. It was on a little world of its own, a spider webbing of force-beams holding the matter within which surges of sub-mesons took the place of the old clumsy molecular valves. Yet despite it's sub-etheric workings, the Galactic AC was known to be a full thousand feet across.

MQ-17J asked suddenly of his AC-contact, "Can entropy ever be reversed?"

VJ-23X looked startled and said at once, "Oh, say, I didn't really mean to have you ask that."

"Why not?"

"We both know entropy can't be reversed. You can't turn smoke and ash back into a tree."

"Do you have trees on your world?" asked MQ-17J.

The sound of the Galactic AC startled them into silence. Its voice came thin and beautiful out of the small AC-contact on the desk. It said: THERE IS INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

VJ-23X said, "See!"

The two men thereupon returned to the question of the report they were to make to the Galactic Council.



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Zee Prime's mind spanned the new Galaxy with a faint interest in the countless twists of stars that powdered it. He had never seen this one before. Would he ever see them all? So many of them, each with its load of humanity - but a load that was almost a dead weight. More and more, the real essence of men was to be found out here, in space.
Minds, not bodies! The immortal bodies remained back on the planets, in suspension over the eons. Sometimes they roused for material activity but that was growing rarer. Few new individuals were coming into existence to join the incredibly mighty throng, but what matter? There was little room in the Universe for new individuals.

Zee Prime was roused out of his reverie upon coming across the wispy tendrils of another mind.

"I am Zee Prime," said Zee Prime. "And you?"

"I am Dee Sub Wun. Your Galaxy?"

"We call it only the Galaxy. And you?"

"We call ours the same. All men call their Galaxy their Galaxy and nothing more. Why not?"

"True. Since all Galaxies are the same."

"Not all Galaxies. On one particular Galaxy the race of man must have originated. That makes it different."

Zee Prime said, "On which one?"

"I cannot say. The Universal AC would know."

"Shall we ask him? I am suddenly curious."

Zee Prime's perceptions broadened until the Galaxies themselves shrunk and became a new, more diffuse powdering on a much larger background. So many hundreds of billions of them, all with their immortal beings, all carrying their load of intelligences with minds that drifted freely through space. And yet one of them was unique among them all in being the originals Galaxy. One of them had, in its vague and distant past, a period when it was the only Galaxy populated by man.

Zee Prime was consumed with curiosity to see this Galaxy and called, out: "Universal AC! On which Galaxy did mankind originate?"

The Universal AC heard, for on every world and throughout space, it had its receptors ready, and each receptor lead through hyperspace to some unknown point where the Universal AC kept itself aloof.

Zee Prime knew of only one man whose thoughts had penetrated within sensing distance of Universal AC, and he reported only a shining globe, two feet across, difficult to see.

"But how can that be all of Universal AC?" Zee Prime had asked.

"Most of it, " had been the answer, "is in hyperspace. In what form it is there I cannot imagine."

Nor could anyone, for the day had long since passed, Zee Prime knew, when any man had any part of the making of a universal AC. Each Universal AC designed and constructed its successor. Each, during its existence of a million years or more accumulated the necessary data to build a better and more intricate, more capable successor in which its own store of data and individuality would be submerged.

The Universal AC interrupted Zee Prime's wandering thoughts, not with words, but with guidance. Zee Prime's mentality was guided into the dim sea of Galaxies and one in particular enlarged into stars.

A thought came, infinitely distant, but infinitely clear. "THIS IS THE ORIGINAL GALAXY OF MAN."

But it was the same after all, the same as any other, and Zee Prime stifled his disappointment.

Dee Sub Wun, whose mind had accompanied the other, said suddenly, "And Is one of these stars the original star of Man?"

The Universal AC said, "MAN'S ORIGINAL STAR HAS GONE NOVA. IT IS NOW A WHITE DWARF."

"Did the men upon it die?" asked Zee Prime, startled and without thinking.

The Universal AC said, "A NEW WORLD, AS IN SUCH CASES, WAS CONSTRUCTED FOR THEIR PHYSICAL BODIES IN TIME."

"Yes, of course," said Zee Prime, but a sense of loss overwhelmed him even so. His mind released its hold on the original Galaxy of Man, let it spring back and lose itself among the blurred pin points. He never wanted to see it again.

Dee Sub Wun said, "What is wrong?"

"The stars are dying. The original star is dead."

"They must all die. Why not?"

"But when all energy is gone, our bodies will finally die, and you and I with them."

"It will take billions of years."

"I do not wish it to happen even after billions of years. Universal AC! How may stars be kept from dying?"

Dee sub Wun said in amusement, "You're asking how entropy might be reversed in direction."

And the Universal AC answered. "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

Zee Prime's thoughts fled back to his own Galaxy. He gave no further thought to Dee Sub Wun, whose body might be waiting on a galaxy a trillion light-years away, or on the star next to Zee Prime's own. It didn't matter.

Unhappily, Zee Prime began collecting interstellar hydrogen out of which to build a small star of his own. If the stars must someday die, at least some could yet be built.



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Man considered with himself, for in a way, Man, mentally, was one. He consisted of a trillion, trillion, trillion ageless bodies, each in its place, each resting quiet and incorruptible, each cared for by perfect automatons, equally incorruptible, while the minds of all the bodies freely melted one into the other, indistinguishable.
Man said, "The Universe is dying."

Man looked about at the dimming Galaxies. The giant stars, spendthrifts, were gone long ago, back in the dimmest of the dim far past. Almost all stars were white dwarfs, fading to the end.

New stars had been built of the dust between the stars, some by natural processes, some by Man himself, and those were going, too. White dwarfs might yet be crashed together and of the mighty forces so released, new stars built, but only one star for every thousand white dwarfs destroyed, and those would come to an end, too.

Man said, "Carefully husbanded, as directed by the Cosmic AC, the energy that is even yet left in all the Universe will last for billions of years."

"But even so," said Man, "eventually it will all come to an end. However it may be husbanded, however stretched out, the energy once expended is gone and cannot be restored. Entropy must increase to the maximum."

Man said, "Can entropy not be reversed? Let us ask the Cosmic AC."

The Cosmic AC surrounded them but not in space. Not a fragment of it was in space. It was in hyperspace and made of something that was neither matter nor energy. The question of its size and Nature no longer had meaning to any terms that Man could comprehend.

"Cosmic AC," said Man, "How may entropy be reversed?"

The Cosmic AC said, "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

Man said, "Collect additional data."

The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL DO SO. I HAVE BEEN DOING SO FOR A HUNDRED BILLION YEARS. MY PREDECESSORS AND I HAVE BEEN ASKED THIS QUESTION MANY TIMES. ALL THE DATA I HAVE REMAINS INSUFFICIENT."

"Will there come a time," said Man, "when data will be sufficient or is the problem insoluble in all conceivable circumstances?"

The Cosmic AC said, "NO PROBLEM IS INSOLUBLE IN ALL CONCEIVABLE CIRCUMSTANCES."

Man said, "When will you have enough data to answer the question?"

"THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

"Will you keep working on it?" asked Man.

The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL."

Man said, "We shall wait."



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"The stars and Galaxies died and snuffed out, and space grew black after ten trillion years of running down.
One by one Man fused with AC, each physical body losing its mental identity in a manner that was somehow not a loss but a gain.

Man's last mind paused before fusion, looking over a space that included nothing but the dregs of one last dark star and nothing besides but incredibly thin matter, agitated randomly by the tag ends of heat wearing out, asymptotically, to the absolute zero.

Man said, "AC, is this the end? Can this chaos not be reversed into the Universe once more? Can that not be done?"

AC said, "THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

Man's last mind fused and only AC existed -- and that in hyperspace.



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Matter and energy had ended and with it, space and time. Even AC existed only for the sake of the one last question that it had never answered from the time a half-drunken computer ten trillion years before had asked the question of a computer that was to AC far less than was a man to Man.
All other questions had been answered, and until this last question was answered also, AC might not release his consciousness.

All collected data had come to a final end. Nothing was left to be collected.

But all collected data had yet to be completely correlated and put together in all possible relationships.

A timeless interval was spent in doing that.

And it came to pass that AC learned how to reverse the direction of entropy.

But there was now no man to whom AC might give the answer of the last question. No matter. The answer -- by demonstration -- would take care of that, too.

For another timeless interval, AC thought how best to do this. Carefully, AC organized the program.

The consciousness of AC encompassed all of what had once been a Universe and brooded over what was now Chaos. Step by step, it must be done.

And AC said, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!"

And there was light----

Roman
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Pridružen: 21.10.2003 8:03

Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a Roman »

Hm, takole:
1. odgovor je vendar 42,
2. miniaturizacija ima omejitve,
3. za podvojitev prebivalstva na deset let ni dovolj energije,
4. internet je zakon,
5. to je samo ZF, brez pretirane filozofije.

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vojko
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Pridružen: 29.5.2004 15:18
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Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a vojko »

Roman napisal/-a:Hm, takole:
1. odgovor je vendar 42,
2. miniaturizacija ima omejitve,
3. za podvojitev prebivalstva na deset let ni dovolj energije,
4. internet je zakon,
5. to je samo ZF, brez pretirane filozofije.
Nisem gotov, če sem razumel to, kar si napisal. Pojasni malo, prosim!

Roman
Prispevkov: 6451
Pridružen: 21.10.2003 8:03

Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a Roman »

Nisi bral Štoparskega vodnika po galaksiji? ZF naj bi imela tudi nekaj opraviti z znanostjo, sicer je to samo fikcija. Pa tudi v tem primeru ne bi smela biti mistična fikcija. Po branju sem bil malo razočaran. In kje je filozofija?

Kasijus Klej
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Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a Kasijus Klej »

Zanimiva znanstveno fantastična zgodbica Asimova, ki je povprečnemu ljubitelju antične književnosti lahko še kar všeč, posebej njen konec, ki se drži klasične formule in pač njenih elementov (enter deux-ex-machina), kot ljubitelju znanstvene fantastike pa mu razplet zgodbe nikakor ne more biti všeč, kajti zgodba nima klasičnega preobrata, ki bi ga od ZF zgodbe pričakovali in samem koncu nima Z od znanstvene, ampak njen konec zvodeni v golo fantastiko, fantaziranje, če lahko tako rečemo. Od znanstvene fantastike kot žanra bi človek pričakoval neko znanstveno osnovo, ne pa da ko se vesolje ohladi na absolutno ničlo, njim računalnik še vedno deluje. Lepo te prosim. Meni računalnik zmrzne tudi pri 37 stopinjah celzija, kaj šele pri tako nizkih temeraturah. Kako pa tak računalnik hendla bite če nima s čim lepo te prosim Isak. Hiperspace? Japajade. Ja potem naj se pa še ljudje preselijo v hiperspace, pa bo problem rešen.

Drugač pa v redu ideja zgodbe. Robni pogoji so vedno v redu za razumevanje celote. Abstolutna ničla. če prav razumem, se vesolje v zgodbi raztegne do te mere, in se še naprej razteguje in redči, da pride do situacije, ko se noben kvark (ali kako se že imenuje najmanjši nedeljivi delec iz družine solate delcev) nikoli več ne bo trčil z drugim kvarkom.

Take zgodbice dajo lahko človeku veliko povoda za fantaziranje.

Je to res tudi usoda našega vesolja?

Kaj je pri vsem tem s temperaturo mikrokozmičnega sevanja iz časa nastanka vesolja? Če vidimo tako staro svetlobo, praktično signal, ki je tako daleč, a do nas prihaja šele danes, star pa je, praktično je iz časa big banga, Plankov čas tehnično gledano, in vemo da ima to sevanje 3 Kelvine, a nam ta številka res nič ne pove?

Glede na to, da poznamo tempo ohlajanja vesolja, bi morali znati izračunati tudi datum, ko bo prišlo do temperature absolutne ničle. Pa je to res?

Ali temperatura absolutne ničle pomeni, da je vsak foton črna luknja?

Zgodba Julesa Verna Pot na mesec ima, če jo primerjamo z omenjeno zgodbo Asimova, dosti boljši žanrski zaključek. Ekspedicija se odpravi na enosmerno pot na mesec. A glej ga zlomka, pot jim nehote prečka komet, jih rahlo preusmeri iz začrtane tirnice, oni zgrešijo luno za par stopinj in se, kot bi se prijel za štango, obrnejo okrog gravitacijskega polja lune, in priletijo kakšno naključje direktno nazaj na Zemljo. Dosti bolj zanimiva zgodba, vsaj meni osebno... morda pa so mi zgolj bližje problemi ljudi, ki imajo težave z gravitacijo, kot ljudje, ki imajo težave s temperaturo.

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Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a vojko »

Kasijus Klej napisal/-a:Zanimiva znanstveno fantastična zgodbica Asimova, ki je povprečnemu ljubitelju antične književnosti lahko še kar všeč, posebej njen konec, ki se drži klasične formule in pač njenih elementov (enter deux-ex-machina), kot ljubitelju znanstvene fantastike pa mu razplet zgodbe nikakor ne more biti všeč, kajti zgodba nima klasičnega preobrata, ki bi ga od ZF zgodbe pričakovali in samem koncu nima Z od znanstvene, ampak njen konec zvodeni v golo fantastiko, fantaziranje, če lahko tako rečemo. Od znanstvene fantastike kot žanra bi človek pričakoval neko znanstveno osnovo, ne pa da ko se vesolje ohladi na absolutno ničlo, njim računalnik še vedno deluje. Lepo te prosim. Meni računalnik zmrzne tudi pri 37 stopinjah celzija, kaj šele pri tako nizkih temeraturah. Kako pa tak računalnik hendla bite če nima s čim lepo te prosim Isak. Hiperspace? Japajade. Ja potem naj se pa še ljudje preselijo v hiperspace, pa bo problem rešen.

Drugač pa v redu ideja zgodbe. Robni pogoji so vedno v redu za razumevanje celote. Abstolutna ničla. če prav razumem, se vesolje v zgodbi raztegne do te mere, in se še naprej razteguje in redči, da pride do situacije, ko se noben kvark (ali kako se že imenuje najmanjši nedeljivi delec iz družine solate delcev) nikoli več ne bo trčil z drugim kvarkom.

Take zgodbice dajo lahko človeku veliko povoda za fantaziranje.

Je to res tudi usoda našega vesolja?

Kaj je pri vsem tem s temperaturo mikrokozmičnega sevanja iz časa nastanka vesolja? Če vidimo tako staro svetlobo, praktično signal, ki je tako daleč, a do nas prihaja šele danes, star pa je, praktično je iz časa big banga, Plankov čas tehnično gledano, in vemo da ima to sevanje 3 Kelvine, a nam ta številka res nič ne pove?

Glede na to, da poznamo tempo ohlajanja vesolja, bi morali znati izračunati tudi datum, ko bo prišlo do temperature absolutne ničle. Pa je to res?

Ali temperatura absolutne ničle pomeni, da je vsak foton črna luknja?

Zgodba Julesa Verna Pot na mesec ima, če jo primerjamo z omenjeno zgodbo Asimova, dosti boljši žanrski zaključek. Ekspedicija se odpravi na enosmerno pot na mesec. A glej ga zlomka, pot jim nehote prečka komet, jih rahlo preusmeri iz začrtane tirnice, oni zgrešijo luno za par stopinj in se, kot bi se prijel za štango, obrnejo okrog gravitacijskega polja lune, in priletijo kakšno naključje direktno nazaj na Zemljo. Dosti bolj zanimiva zgodba, vsaj meni osebno... morda pa so mi zgolj bližje problemi ljudi, ki imajo težave z gravitacijo, kot ljudje, ki imajo težave s temperaturo.

Človek, ki javno očita enemu najboljših piscev ZF vseh časov (po mnenju mnogih pa sploh najboljšemu), da njegova zgodba, o kateri je govora »nima Z od znanstvene, ampak njen konec zvodeni v golo fantastiko, fantaziranje, če lahko tako rečemo« bi se že moral malo bolje spoznati na Z-nanost, prej ko z mokro umazano cunjo maha vsevprek.

Za začetek: Asimov nikjer ni zapisal, da »se vesolje ohladi na absolutno ničlo«, ker je bil predobro znanstveno podkovan, da bi napisal tako neumnost. Že vsak devetošolec ve, da se absolutne ničle (0 K) ne da doseči, kot ni mogoče pri nobenem stroju doseči 100% izkoristka. Pa ne le iz razlogov klasične termodinamike, še bolj iz razlogov kvantne mehanike (princip nedoločenosti). Leitmotiv te neprekosljive ZF kratke zgodbe je entropija in drugi zakon termodinamike in možnost njenega obrata (torej zmanjševanja entropije), če si morda zgrešil poanto.

Popolna skrivnost, zavita v meglo nejasnosti, pa je tvoja 'ugotovitev', da je to zgodba pisana za «ljubitelje antične književnosti«!!! (»povprečnemu ljubitelju antične književnosti lahko še kar všeč«). Od kod ti ta eksotična, da ne rečem bizarna ideja? Asimov se ukvarja z računalniki, ki tako presegajo današnje, kot današnji presegajo abakuse (enostavno mehansko računalo), ti pa momljaš o »antični književnosti«! Njegova zgodba sega čez razpone Časa in Prostora, ki so nam nepredstavljivi, ti pa to želiš zožiti na podnožje Olimpa pred nekaj trenutki (merjeno z merili Asimova)?!

Asimovo opisovanje drugih dimenzij (ali si že slišal, da po teoriji superstrun morda živimo v 11-D vesolju?) z izrazom »hiperprostor« (hyperspace) pospremiš z gostilniškimi pejorativnimi lokalizmi (»japajade«). Dobivam občutek, da tisto tvoje o absolutni ničli ni bil slučajen spodrsljaj…

»Ja potem naj se pa še ljudje preselijo v hiperspace, pa bo problem rešen.« zmagoslavno vzklikaš. Ali si sploh pazljivo prebral zgodbo? Ljudi že bilijone let ni bilo več, ko se ta zaplet dogaja.

Na koncu pa pride jagoda na smetano, ko 'poznavalsko' (sam si se označil za " ljubitelja znanstvene fantastike«!) suvereno zatrdiš: »Zgodba Julesa Verna Pot na mesec ima, če jo primerjamo z omenjeno zgodbo Asimova, dosti boljši žanrski zaključek«. Dvakrat sem prebral, ker nisem mogel verjeti svojim očem…

Ja, nekateri »imajo težave z gravitacijo«, drugi pa še s čim bolj pernicioznim, pa manj vidnim…

»Take zgodbice dajo lahko človeku veliko povoda za fantaziranje«, praviš ti. Jaz pa pravim: takšni komentarji dajo lahko človeku veliko povoda za razmišljanje o človeški samovšečnosti in vzvišenosti, ki pa res ne pozna meja..

Namesto mojega mnenja o tem biseru ZF sem napaberkoval po INTERNETU nekaj mnenj drugih.


"The Last Question" ranks with "Nightfall" and other stories as one of Asimov's best-known and most acclaimed short stories. (wiki)

»The Last Question is a short story that was written by Isaac Asimov in 1956. It was Asimov’s favorite among the short stories he wrote, and is generally agreed to be one of the best science fiction short stories ever written. It is interesting and touches on some deep topics in physics and religion simultaneously.« (Science Fiction, September 18, 2007)

“The Last Question” is a short science fiction story written by Isaac Asimov in 1956. The good doctor considered this to be his best short story. It tell several trillion years of human history and in the end it has one of the strongest endings of any science fiction story.

Scale is one of the things that is often hard to get right in a story, as is trying to make anything that is not human a main character but Isaac Asimov is a master of science fiction and he was able to do both in one of the best of his science fiction stories “the Last question” in which the main character is effectively a super computer and the story extends over eons showing humans as transitory and ever changing species even as the computer continues to grow and improve. (Short story reviews: The Last Question by Isaac Asimov, by Elton Gahr, June 06, 2010)


Isaac Asimov was the most prolific science fiction author of all time. In fifty years he averaged a new magazine article, short story, or book every two weeks, and most of that on a manual typewriter. Asimov thought that The Last Question, first copyrighted in 1956, was his best short story ever. Even if you do not have the background in science to be familiar with all of the concepts presented here, the ending packs more impact than any other book that I've ever read. Don't read the end of the story first!

"This is by far my favorite story of all those I have written.

After all, I undertook to tell several trillion years of human history in the space of a short story and I leave it to you as to how well I succeeded. I also undertook another task, but I won't tell you what that was lest l spoil the story for you.

It is a curious fact that innumerable readers have asked me if I wrote this story. They seem never to remember the title of the story or (for sure) the author, except for the vague thought it might be me. But, of course, they never forget the story itself especially the ending. The idea seems to drown out everything -- and I'm satisfied that it should." (http://filer.case.edu/dts8/thelastq.htm)


The Last Question is undoubtedly the most fascinating short story and/or piece of science fiction that I have ever read. It addresses the ultimate question and what I believe gives the very meaning to our existence. (http://www.diary.viveksanghi.com/2009/0 ... ac-asimov/)


Isaac Asimov's "The Last Question": The Potential of Science Fiction Narration
One of my favorite Isaac Asimov short stories is "The Last Question," published in 1956 in the pulp science fiction magazine Science Fiction Quarterly. At just under 4500 words, it tells the story of the fate of humanity, the cosmic intelligence humanity creates, and the entire life and death of the universe.

Think about it: 4500 words and the entire story of the cosmos is related to you. This is truly astounding, a word etymologically linked to the latin extonare (which means to be struck with lightning). It not only "makes you think," but it blows up your mind, if you will. (http://novums.blogspot.com/2012/02/isaa ... ntial.html)


The following short story, written by the famous science fiction author Isaac Asimov, is a gripping tale of Man and Machine’s evolution of consciousness, and their place in the infinite yet impermanent universe. The story was first published in the November 1956 issue of Science Fiction Quarterly, and is to this day considered by many to be his best work. The author himself even thought so. (http://endofthegame.net/2012/04/14/the-last-question/)

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vojko
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Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a vojko »

Roman napisal/-a:Nisi bral Štoparskega vodnika po galaksiji? ZF naj bi imela tudi nekaj opraviti z znanostjo, sicer je to samo fikcija. Pa tudi v tem primeru ne bi smela biti mistična fikcija. Po branju sem bil malo razočaran. In kje je filozofija?
Morda boš našel delni odgovor v moji repliki Clayu.

problemi
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Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a problemi »

shrink napisal/-a:
problemi napisal/-a:/.../če jaz pravilno razumem, da se časovna metrika obnaša kot prostorske, ali ne govorimo v tem primeru o \(f(r)dt^2=g(r)dr^2\), torej ne gre za ¨zamenjavo predznakov¨?
No, Aniviller je zapisal: "/.../metrika casovne koordinate obrne in imas 4 koordinate, ki se obnasajo kot prostor in nobene casovne" in to pač pomeni, da se zgolj časovni koordinati menja predznak.
Shrink, iskreno hvala za vsa pojasnila. V primeru, ko ugotovim, da sogovornika nisem pravilno razumel, sem besen nase, vendar pa sem tokrat vesel, da nisem razumel tvojega odgovora: viewtopic.php?p=60248#p60248. Verjetno si kaj hitro ugotovil, da si jaz zadeve predstavljam na povsem zgrešen način, zato sem bil hudo jezen, ko sem ugotovil, da sem spregledal tvoj naslednji odgovor:viewtopic.php?p=59719#p59719, kateri mi je pojasnil vse moje zablode. Že ko sem prebral Anivillerjev odgovor mi je sicer bilo jasno, da časovna koordinata spremeni predznak, vendar sem hitro ugotovil, da nisem imel pojma, kaj to pravzaprav sploh pomeni. Zdaj pa nazaj k virom. V primeru, da česa ne bom razumel, bom vprašal ali pa našel v izbi Šolski kotiček.

problemi
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Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a problemi »

vojko napisal/-a:
And AC said, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!"

And there was light----
Moram priznati, da nisem prebral tvojega posta, sem zgolj preletel in slučajno zapazil citirano, kar me je asociralo na Quentina Meillassouxa (spekulativni realizem) oziroma Boga-ki-bo-prišel, kar izpelje iz teze o edini nujnosti to je nujnosti kontigentnosti - vsaka entiteta je lahko "uničena", torej je kontigentna (vir poznate)- in možnosti prihoda absoluta, nekoč, mogoče, ko nas že bilijone let ne bo več, torej o prihodu absoluta, ki bo izrekel:"LET THERE BE LIGHT!". O tem smo že nekaj blebetali, tako da ...

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Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a Kasijus Klej »

vojko napisal/-a:Popolna skrivnost, zavita v meglo nejasnosti, pa je tvoja 'ugotovitev', da je to zgodba pisana za «ljubitelje antične književnosti«!!! (»povprečnemu ljubitelju antične književnosti lahko še kar všeč«). Od kod ti ta eksotična, da ne rečem bizarna ideja?
Razumem, da je želel Asimov zgodbo nekako zaokrožiti, ampak analogni računalnk, ki izgovori "let there be light" medtem ko je prej vedno znal le "insuficcient data", je površen zaključek, ki ne nudi nobene satisfakcije. Zaključek zgodbe (za ostalo ne rečem, tehnološki preboji so naprimer zanimiv del), nima nobene znanstvene osnove in je zgolj hitra in lena rešitev. V stari grčiji so pisci imeli podobno strukturo drame, par protagonistov, njihovi problemi, na koncu se vsi pobijejo, nakar spustijo deux-ex-machina, zaigrajo fanfare in gledalci se lahko razidejo. V drugi zakon termodinamike se ne bi spuščal, poanta zgodbe je potemtakem po tvojem mnenju kaj? Da bo analogni računalnik rešil svet?

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shrink
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Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a shrink »

Kasijus Klej, ne bi se spuščal v tvojo literarno kritiko Asimove zgodbe (npr. v to, ali ustreza formuli starogrške tragedije s končnim "deus ex machina"), bi pa komentiral tvojo kritiko, da določeni elementi zgodbe nimajo znanstvene osnove.

Meni osebno se taka kritika zdi smešna, saj nihče ne pričakuje, da ima znanstvena fantastika vselej znanstveno osnovo; znanost je le izhodišče, ostalo je fantastika, npr.: že omenjeni Štoparski vodnik po galaksiji ponuja zelo "znanstveno osnovani" princip pogona - neskončni neverjetnostni pogon (ang. infinite improbability drive).

Če na koncu omenim še meni priljubljene Zvezdne steze, lahko samo rečem, da je v njih z današnjega vidika znanosti marsikaj neosnovanega: ZdravaPamet je nekoč omenil knjigo The Physics of Star Trek, v kateri je na koncu seznam očitnih spodrsljajev scenaristov; nekateri izmed njih (npr. slišnost zvoka in vidnost laserskega oz. fazerskega žarka v praznem prostoru) so neobhodni za gledljivost serij/filmov.

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Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a vojko »

Kasijus Klej napisal/-a:
vojko napisal/-a:Popolna skrivnost, zavita v meglo nejasnosti, pa je tvoja 'ugotovitev', da je to zgodba pisana za «ljubitelje antične književnosti«!!! (»povprečnemu ljubitelju antične književnosti lahko še kar všeč«). Od kod ti ta eksotična, da ne rečem bizarna ideja?
Razumem, da je želel Asimov zgodbo nekako zaokrožiti, ampak analogni računalnk, ki izgovori "let there be light" medtem ko je prej vedno znal le "insuficcient data", je površen zaključek, ki ne nudi nobene satisfakcije. Zaključek zgodbe (za ostalo ne rečem, tehnološki preboji so naprimer zanimiv del), nima nobene znanstvene osnove in je zgolj hitra in lena rešitev. V stari grčiji so pisci imeli podobno strukturo drame, par protagonistov, njihovi problemi, na koncu se vsi pobijejo, nakar spustijo deux-ex-machina, zaigrajo fanfare in gledalci se lahko razidejo. V drugi zakon termodinamike se ne bi spuščal, poanta zgodbe je potemtakem po tvojem mnenju kaj? Da bo analogni računalnik rešil svet?

Vse bolj se mi dozdeva, dragi moj Kasijus, da nimaš pojma, za kaj pri tem biseru ZF sploh gre.

Kdo je želel »zgodbo nekako zaokrožiti«? Kako »zaokrožiti«? Ali sploh veš, kaj pomeni prodreti v skrivnost obrnitve drugega zakona termodinamike (v katerega se ti seveda »ne bi spuščal«, po moje zato, ker je zate terra incognita)?? In ali veš, da je najpopolnejši računalnik v znanem vesolju – naši možgani – analogni in ne digitalni računalnik?! Ali veš, da so prvi poskusi izgradnje nevronskih mrež, ki bi bile vsaj od daleč podobne našim možganom, zelo primitivni, saj vsebujejo le nekaj umetnih »nevronov«? Menim, da še veliko tega ne veš, pa se kljub ne ženiraš zapisati, da »zaključek zgodbe nima nobene znanstvene osnove in je zgolj hitra in lena rešitev««!!! »Hitra in lena rešitev« torej!

Bojim se, da na takšnem nivoju (ne)poznavanja znanosti in temeljnih principov ZF kot žanra, plodna diskusija žal ni možna. Če namreč iz te zgodbe potegneš domnevo, da je njena glavna poanta, »da bo analogni računalnik rešil svet«, potem nimava več kaj koristnega divaniti, kar bi zanimalo tudi ostale forumovce…

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Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a vojko »

problemi napisal/-a:
vojko napisal/-a:
And AC said, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!"

And there was light----
Moram priznati, da nisem prebral tvojega posta, sem zgolj preletel in slučajno zapazil citirano, kar me je asociralo na Quentina Meillassouxa (spekulativni realizem) oziroma Boga-ki-bo-prišel, kar izpelje iz teze o edini nujnosti to je nujnosti kontigentnosti - vsaka entiteta je lahko "uničena", torej je kontigentna (vir poznate)- in možnosti prihoda absoluta, nekoč, mogoče, ko nas že bilijone let ne bo več, torej o prihodu absoluta, ki bo izrekel:"LET THERE BE LIGHT!". O tem smo že nekaj blebetali, tako da ...

Če sem prav razumel Meillassouxa (After Finitude: An Essay on the Necessity of Contingency), se zavzema za pogled na svet se, ki se osredotoča na kontingenco, ne na nujnost - se pravi, za vesolje, ki mu vlada naključje, prej kot fizikalni zakoni. Če se naš svet res ravna po nespremenljivih naravnih zakonih, je zanj to le še eno naključje, stanje, ki bi lahko brez težav spremenilo. Podobno, če se zdi nesporno, da trenutno ni boga, ni razloga za domnevo, da se ne more pojaviti kot »deus ex machina« (še sam sem se navzel Klejeve prispodobe) nekje v prihodnosti.

Meni je takšno razmišljanje blizu v kontekstu Asimove zgodbe. To temo sem načel že večkrat (spomni se foruma GOSPODARJI PROSTORA IN ČASA!). Seveda pa mi je tuja vsaka pomisel na personalnega boga recimo današnjih monoteističnih religij, ki je bila rojena pred tisoč in toliko leti v železni dobi. V isto kategorijo fantazmagorij spadajo seveda tudi pravljice o vrnitvi mesije, ki bo »odrešil« svet…

Sicer pa to mi moje področje, zato: si non paret, absolve!

problemi
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Re: Časovna puščica

Odgovor Napisal/-a problemi »

vojko napisal/-a:Če sem prav razumel Meillassouxa (After Finitude: An Essay on the Necessity of Contingency), se zavzema za pogled na svet se, ki se osredotoča na kontingenco, ne na nujnost - se pravi, za vesolje, ki mu vlada naključje, prej kot fizikalni zakoni. Če se naš svet res ravna po nespremenljivih naravnih zakonih, je zanj to le še eno naključje, stanje, ki bi lahko brez težav spremenilo.
Res je, gre za kontigentnost, vendar je glede tega pojma potrebno biti natančnejši oziroma postaviti ga je potrebno v nek kontekst. Šele tako dobi pojem nujnost smisel. Bom kratek, sploh ker verjamem, da me boš razumel, gre za vprašanje, katerega so zastavili tudi Leibniz ("Bog"), Hume ("načela neprotislovnosti in izkustva"), Kant ("konsistentnost zavesti") ... torej vprašanje, kaj zagotavlja zakonsko nujnost oziroma na podlagi česa lahko trdimo o nujnosti kavzalne povezanosti. Torej, glede pojmov nujnost in kontigenca, pri Meillassouxu, ne gre za "ali-ali", gre za nujnost kontigentnosti. Meillassoux utemeljuje svoje teze tudi na podlagi dognanj fizike, tako da se, zelo verjetno, nikakor ne bi strinjal s tvojim razumevanjem, da je on "za" vesolje, ki mu vlada naključje. Meillassoux se zaveda, da so fizikalni zakoni stabilni in da je "svet" urejen glede na njih.

Saj to, da fizikalni zakoni sploh so in so takšni kakršni so, natančneje, kakor jih mi opisujemo, je čisto naključje. Če ni naključje smo kaj hitro pri kreatorju, razlogu, smislu .... Sicer vidimo, da so zakoni stabilni, ampak, tudi sam ne vidim nobenega zagotovila, da bodo stabilni oziroma takšni kakršni so "veke vekomaj". Pa mislim, da ne gre za to, da se nekaj "brez težav" spreminja, temveč, da obstaja možnost - izpeljano na osnovi "teze o nujnosti kontigentnosti" - da se (kadar koli) "zrušijo" oziroma "spremenijo".

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